I've loaded many different cartridges, but never sized a single bullet, so please excuse my ignorance. Now that I've built my 9.3 x 62 Mauser, I'd love to be able to use the same 158g hollow points (Rainier) I shoot from my Ruger Blackhawk. These are plated, not jacketed bullets, so I think they should be about as pliable as cast?
Can a guy successfully get a .358 sized up to .366?

Anyone currently doing this?

Sure if you have a bump up die; I have fired jacketed .358 bullets from a 9.3x72R Drilling with good results. If they are just plated, you won't be able to shoot them very fast. I would get a mold and cast some .366s if you really want to shoot lead bullets.
You can patch them up to .366 with freezer tape or teflon tape too.

Thanks, dpcd.

I assume you wind the tape around the bullet's circumference in the same way you tape a pipe thread? Do you get reasonable accuracy at say, 50 yds?

Yes, you will be able to hit a deers' heart at 50 yards; I could do that with the jacketed .358s. Just wrap it around; it will stick on it's own, unlike paper, which was applied wet, diagonally. You could PP too but it it a lot of work and tape is easier.

quote:

You could PP too but it it a lot of work and tape is easier

As in paper patch. Had and old Sharps YEARS ago. Did the PP on lead bullets. Only accuracy limits it had was my eyes.

so you spent 2 grand building a rifle and want to spend 6 cents on the ammo.

just buy some bullets the right diameter they'll cost what 20-25 bucks?....jeez.

See my post + pics in "bullet making".

This being said, it's really a lot of trouble to go through, considering the excellent 9,3 bullets on the market.

You might want to do a cost/ benefit ratio study on bullet swaging presses and accessories.

If you are careful and conservative you may be able to set up for a oouple of thousand dollars. The press alone runs from around $700 to $8,000 depending.

That Rainier bullet is lead with a copper coating. My guess would be in the range of about 15 Brinell hardness. It's velocity limitation is 1,500 psi and it is recommended for indoor range shooting. Not good for game.

Pressure swaging up is certainly practical and done easily. However, other alternatives are cheaper.

Lyman's is the preeminent leader in lead bullets. They sell lots of varieties. Too they have all sorts of bullet casting equipment but there again the investment is going to be big.

I think I saw some advertisements for "seconds bullets" 70% off.

I say if the man wants to experiment a bit; he should go for it; he might learn something in the process. He doesn't need a Corbin Swaging setup just to bump up a pistol bullet; it an be easily done in a reloading press. But he doesn't even need to do that.

Absolutely correct. *( Conditionally with provisos and exceptions )

CH4D made the Swage 0 Matic in the past.

http://www.castpics.net/subsit...ls/Swage-O-Matic.pdf

They were a California based outfit many years ago. But sold out and were/are last heard of in Marion, Ohio. Pretty obscure outfit. I have some of their old stuff with the California address still. They don't show that press now on their website.

As I counseled - do a study. Corbin is too large and costly. It's for commercial/professional outfits.

Your post sort of left things dangling inconclusive. I suspect that the originator may have a rather limited supply of his bullets left and thus he will be out rather soon. But we don't know his volume annually.

I think it would be appreciated and beneficial if you would elaborate more specifically, step by step, the whys and howfore's to do it your way.

I'll put it into the curriculum for my Grandson.

Thanks. Always appreciated.

Point is, this can be done, without any tools or any investment at all. If the OP wants to shoot pistol bullets in his 9.3, he certainly can.
Here is the way I have fired .358 pistol bullets in a 9.3x72R.
Load them, and shoot them. That's it. But do not do that with lead bullets; it will gas cut them.
I recommended the easiest way for lead bullets; wrap them with one wrap of freezer tape. It is .0035 thick and one wrap will make a .358 bullet into a .365. Load and shoot them; make sure your neck is well chamfered so you don't tear the tape. Next way, wrap the bullets bearing surface with teflon tape; two or 3 wraps. Next way. Wrap with damp paper like in Andre's pictures. Next way; I make forming dies in my lathe and squash bullets up to .366; this method is not for a few bullets if you have to buy dies. Not cost effective.
Next way; buy real .366 bullets; Hawk makes 200 grainers if you want a light one.
Next way; buy a bullet mold and cast them.

Dulltool and dcdc:

https://www.ch4d.com/

I spoke to Dave Davidson, CHD4:

Phone 740-397-7214

Website: https://www.ch4d.com/

I told him that you may call.

He is rummaging around to see what he has available.

Lets run this on to a good resolution..

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Point is, this can be done, without any tools or any investment at all. If the OP wants to shoot pistol bullets in his 9.3, he certainly can.
Here is the way I have fired .358 pistol bullets in a 9.3x72R.
Load them, and shoot them. That's it. But do not do that with lead bullets; it will gas cut them.
I recommended the easiest way for lead bullets; wrap them with one wrap of freezer tape. It is .0035 thick and one wrap will make a .358 bullet into a .365. Load and shoot them; make sure your neck is well chamfered so you don't tear the tape. Next way, wrap the bullets bearing surface with teflon tape; two or 3 wraps. Next way. Wrap with damp paper like in Andre's pictures. Next way; I make forming dies in my lathe and squash bullets up to .366; this method is not for a few bullets if you have to buy dies. Not cost effective.
Next way; buy real .366 bullets; Hawk makes 200 grainers if you want a light one.
Next way; buy a bullet mold and cast them.

That doesn't quite cut the mustard.

Squash them ????? With what ??????

A sledge hammer ?

In a press ?

How ?

With what ?

Where is the control ?

Sounds pretty Hoakey to me.

That won't be in my agenda to pass along.

Go ahead and shoot with a .008 gap.

Not today. Not tomorrow.

Sorry.

Wrap tape ?????????????

Are you kidding ?

quote:

Originally posted by Lamar:
so you spent 2 grand building a rifle and want to spend 6 cents on the ammo.

just buy some bullets the right diameter they'll cost what 20-25 bucks?....jeez.

So, Lamar...do you have anything useful to add or do you just enjoy pissing on other folks' experiments? Of course I already have plenty of .366 bullets and Lapua Brass.

Spend $2K? Hardly. Donor rifle was a gift; did ALL the work myself.

Some of us just enjoy the journey, dude!

And Thanks, Wettibe ad dpcd, for the input.

If I had my way, I'd spend my time tinkering instead of working.....

Just checking out a variety of ideas..might not even go there.

Wetibbe; no I am not kidding; try it. But I can't teach you everything by writing an instruction book in one post. Sorry you didn't understand the basic concepts I described. It's creativity, thinking out of the box, and having fun.
Hoakey? No. The tape fills the .008 gap; that is easy to understand. It works just like all paper patched bullets did in the 1870s that killed 50 million bison. Just easier.
I already said that I swage in a reloading press with dies that I make but patching takes no tools. I have a real bullet swage press too but that is really needed here.
Please do not pass on any of my experience to anyone.
Dull understands what I am saying and he is the one who asked.

My better judgment tells me that I should not respond to this:

None the less I think that you have adequately demonstrated, for any thinking person, that you are obviously and conspicuously a very experienced and knowledgeable person with a wealth on information worth picking your brains and passing along to my Grandson.

If you will tolerate a confession, I am by profession and experience a very meticulous person. If anyone wants to call me a pain in the Axx - I'm OK with that.

I have the Lyman turret top press. CH4D tells me that it is too weak to perform. The typical "0"style presses, single component also seem to be weak for the job.

I'm adding here links to multiple videos.

https://www.google.com/search?..........0.RyQpQxbUeTo

All of this is far down stream for my Grandson's consumption but it is definitely on the agenda for future consideration. I just need to test it and verify before passing along.

Thanks for your much appreciated input. Take with you that our Young Guys need the counseling of the Old Guys to pass it along for a future generation.

Noted. I have friends who are meticulous people and sometimes they need to be brought back down to reality. Not saying you do.
If all you want to do is bump a .358 lead bullet up to .366, then a regular reloading press will do it; that takes relatively little pressure; I use my Rock Chucker and there is no problem at all. For swaging bullets from scratch, then that is where they are not rigid enough. Again, though, for the OP, who I think just wants to experiment and play a bit, for zero investment, he can use masking or freezer tape, or paper (like Andre has pictures of above) and get good results.

Sounds like a good candidate to play with paper patching. I've had fun with patching 50 cal bullets to work in the 510WSM. With paper, you can run a cast bullet pretty hard without fouling. There are lots of details, but it's fun to tinker with it. There's some good info here:

http://castboolits.gunloads.co...eless-Paper-Patching

Why bother?

http://www.midwayusa.com/find?...orydimensionid=20551

Good point, and buying them is certainly the easiest way, but I think the OP just wants to play around a bit. I do a lot of things that make no practical sense.

Dane- didn't see that- good idea.
Still, as dcpd notes, I'm an experimenter, tinkerer and nutcase (no he didn't say that, but I can tell he understands)

I'm up for all sorts of ideas, just as long as I'm convinced I can be safe.

Thanks, again, guys!

Dull:
Be careful what you ask for !

I was in sales for years. The sale begins when the customer say's no.

I've been a Lyman proponent for 6 decades. The absolute tops in every criteria.

You may want to initiate your own lead bullet making.

Here's the starter kit:

http://www.lymanproducts.com/l...ster-casting-kit.php

Yeah- I know what you mean about sales guys!

I shoot 9mm Makarov (9x18mm pistol) bullets in my 9.3x74R and 9.3x62.
I use Hornady 'XTP' 95gr. They are a jacketed hollow point.
They are .365 dia and seem to work just fine.

I load either with 10gr of Red Dot. Both are accurate at 50m.
I have no idea of velocity, I don't have a chronograph,,don't really care.
Just for fun at targets. They shoot to the sights at 50m.
I don't hunt, but I'd think they'd be usefull and deadly for something out there if that was the idea.

A lot easier than bumping dies and all that. Just buy a box or two.

Your velocity is down around 1,751 fps with a pressure of about 9,356 psi.

The "usable" case capacity is 93.681 so a charge of 10 grains is miniscule, leaving the case mostly empty leaving ignition problems or requiring "fillers' of variouus descriptions.

Alliant Red Dot ranks #8 on the burn chart- hot - hot -hot.

Completely inappropriate for the intended use.

BUT _

I note the tendency of loaders to use hot powders out of safe recommendations and I suppose one could assume it is due to parsimonious conservation of resources i.e, chintzing on money.

The wild and reckless adventurers are certainly welcome to experiment, and ride on the wild side, but I am a conservative, conventionalist that abides by practical safety.

Tinkering with hot, explosive powders is like toying with a grenade. Those powders are composed of nitrocellulose and nitroglycerine.

I'm not lecturing, I'm only giving the young guys a heads up. Stay away from the unconventional and stay with the normal. And this comes from a long time health an safety officer from a major national engineering company.

The velocity is fine with me. Thanks for the calculation. As is the PSI.

I made a typo 10gr,,it should have read 11gr for the load. So I guess a small gain in both to be expected.

Certainly RD is a fast burning powder. These are reduced loads.

What about them makes them "Completely inappropriate for the intended use".
I shoot at a range at paper targets. Mostly at 50m.

I've never had ignition problems,,I use standard LR primers.
I never use a filler of any description in any load in any firearm.

No squibs, no stuck bullets, no duds,,,just nice reduced load rifle rounds to shoot. Not looking for anything else. That's why the use of the pistol bullets and the small charge of fast burning powder.
Big bullets and much powder for big loads.

I've been shooting these same load or close to it,, anywhere from 10gr to 13gr of RD and most any cast or jacketed bullet in 30-06, 30-40Krag, 35Rem, 8x57 ,30-30, 30 & 32Rem , 35Whelen and others over the years.

Wild experimentation?, too cheap to buy powder??
....put your 2015 Who's Who in Health & Safety Journal down for a second and spend some time checking the reloading manuals. You can find with a bit of research Red Dot loads in this range for most all these cartridges.
It may take a little work, but that and the help of your pocket protector slide rule can probably get you there.
Don't forget your hard-hat. Might get hit with a piece of the falling sky.

As far as wild and reckless,,9356psi is 12ga stuff.
Yea I know, next is about how the charge is going to detonate in the case. Save that for the true believer discussion group that meets in your basement on Tuesday nites..

10gr to 13gr or R/D in a 30-06 case (62mm) has been a published load for years. It may be unconventional now, but it's not a grenade now anymore than it was in the 50's when I started using it.

BTW,,Works great in the 30-06. 11gr under a pulled GI FMJ or most any cast bullet. Excellent accuracy at 50 and 100m in my Sedgley '03 Springfield.
That's one of those evil Low# 03 Springfields,,the kind that blow up just by looking at them.
...and I shoot damascus shotguns w/ smokeless powder handloads loads too. 5K psi and less.
My God,,he'll never make it out alive...

quote:

Originally posted by 2152hq:
The velocity is fine with me. Thanks for the calculation. As is the PSI.

I made a typo 10gr,,it should have read 11gr for the load. So I guess a small gain in both to be expected.

Certainly RD is a fast burning powder. These are reduced loads.

What about them makes them "Completely inappropriate for the intended use".
I shoot at a range at paper targets. Mostly at 50m.

I've never had ignition problems,,I use standard LR primers.
I never use a filler of any description in any load in any firearm.

No squibs, no stuck bullets, no duds,,,just nice reduced load rifle rounds to shoot. Not looking for anything else. That's why the use of the pistol bullets and the small charge of fast burning powder.
Big bullets and much powder for big loads.

I've been shooting these same load or close to it,, anywhere from 10gr to 13gr of RD and most any cast or jacketed bullet in 30-06, 30-40Krag, 35Rem, 8x57 ,30-30, 30 & 32Rem , 35Whelen and others over the years.

Wild experimentation?, too cheap to buy powder??
....put your 2015 Who's Who in Health & Safety Journal down for a second and spend some time checking the reloading manuals. You can find with a bit of research Red Dot loads in this range for most all these cartridges.
It may take a little work, but that and the help of your pocket protector slide rule can probably get you there.
Don't forget your hard-hat. Might get hit with a piece of the falling sky.

As far as wild and reckless,,9356psi is 12ga stuff.
Yea I know, next is about how the charge is going to detonate in the case. Save that for the true believer discussion group that meets in your basement on Tuesday nites..

10gr to 13gr or R/D in a 30-06 case (62mm) has been a published load for years. It may be unconventional now, but it's not a grenade now anymore than it was in the 50's when I started using it.

BTW,,Works great in the 30-06. 11gr under a pulled GI FMJ or most any cast bullet. Excellent accuracy at 50 and 100m in my Sedgley '03 Springfield.
That's one of those evil Low# 03 Springfields,,the kind that blow up just by looking at them.
...and I shoot damascus shotguns w/ smokeless powder handloads loads too. 5K psi and less.
My God,,he'll never make it out alive...

+1

Ken Howells book Designing and Forming Custom Cartridges has 596 pages. He reckons that there are 5,000 cartridges that he knows about and possibly twice that many. Some cases, in a few instance, are actually identical but with different names.

As I said in other posts, my comments are NOT for the old guys.

Bad things happen. There have been tragic cases of the gun blowing up and maiming or killing the shooter outright.

The VAST differences in calibers from .17 to .700, case lengths, diameters, volumes, shapes illustrate that each case is individual. Some parameters are forgiving and some are critical. Just a small change in one component can mean thousands of psi difference.

Naturally the powder manufacturers will publish SAFE starting charges to stay within the capacity of most guns out there. The lawyers will want to protect from liability. The production people will want to promote performance and quality and the sales people will want orders.

Indeed there are lots of reloaders that use the hot, fast powders designed for pistols and shotguns and get away with it. Some of those loads are perfectly safe and some have amazing performance with the smaller bullets in smaller powders. However in the smaller cases with low grains 3,4,5, 6 etc,- the loading becomes seriously more dangerous going up just a grain or two. That isn't at all the case with the larger cartridges where a couple of grains really don't cause much of a problem.

Wasn't it Evil Knievl, or some such, that tight rope walked across the Grand Canyon ? I wouldn't do that.

All that I am saying is let the old Guys do what they want. My opinion won't change anything or anyone's mind. But Young Guys - don't go tight rope walking until you know what you are doing.

So far as I know using HOT powders instead of the recommended types isn't against the law.

Note: *( There was a post here recently referring to an old, heated argument about the subject of these powders that was apparently 10 years old. I never saw it. I'm not dredging up the past. It's dead and buried. From what someone posted here - there were NO winners ).

quote:

The VAST differences in calibers from .17 to .700, case lengths, diameters, volumes, shapes illustrate that each case is individual. Some parameters are forgiving and some are critical. Just a small change in one component can mean thousands of psi difference.

That's why you can't use a computer program to figure psi and velocity.
Though I appreciate the figure you gave me, they probably came from some such thing that figures it all out for you.
If it was that easy, there would be no need for Labs with pressure testing equipment to get real world numbers to print loading manuals.

It isn't a case of 'getting away with it' as you say,,these are loads out of loading manuals.
They've been around for decades.
Not something someone cooked up on a computer program and came up with cyberworld psi and velocitys. Test/pressure guns and tech work.

RD is a recommended powder for this type of load, in the range listed and the calibers.
It's a fast burner,,yes. Thats why it works in this capacity.
A 'hot' powder,,,don't know what that really means. Sounds sinister,,like it's recycled surplus railroad flare powder or something.
It's RedDot. It's been around for a while. Just doesn't have a fancy name and doesn't promise to clean your gun or read your emails while you're shooting. A let down for many, I know.

So reloading using a reloading manual and using loads printed in the reloading manual is foolhardy, tightrope walking, on the edge behavior.
Count me in,,,.

2152HQ:

Hi:

Just so that you know your response is always welcome. A healthy exchanged of opinions is always welcome.

What you are saying has a few elements that require more explanation.

Whereas I am not necessarily a promoter of Internal Ballistics Quick Load, it is none the less a program that has been around for many years and it has been upgraded several times. My experience in checking and cross checking it that it is chillingly accurate most of the time with some mysterious anomalies yet not explained. But certainly spot on most of the time.

You can buy QL from NECO for $162. Alternately you can buy the tape on barrel pressure devices for about $800. I'll neglect to mention the older methods as these are lab set up's out of reach of ordinary shooters.

Alternately you can depend on the old, tried and undependable , old school method of hard bolt lift, flattened primers, blown primers, case separation which has been proven to be the acceptable "standard" of generic shooters but at the same time worthless in defining exact pressures taking into account the vast numbers of various cases, calibers and rifles.

...and I shoot damascus shotguns w/ smokeless powder handloads loads too. 5K psi and less.
My God,,he'll never make it out alive...[/QUOTE]

+1[/QUOTE]
_______________________________________________

Back in the 1940's when I was around 8-12 years old I hunted on my Grandpas farm in Northern Missouri with my brother. Grandpa loaned me his double barreled New Aubrey Damascus shot gun. It was manufactured in Connecticut back in the late 1880's. New Aubrey was a small manufacturer of limited production that didn't actually last too long. It sold for around $10.00. It kicked like a Missouri Mule and my middle finger was always swollen from recoil. I gifted it to my son and it is currently a wall hanger prominently in his house with history provided.

My uncle loaned me his Browning A5 semi auto, square back 12 gauge and it is phenomenal. I subsequently bought one and used it on all types of game from small to medium animals and many types of ground birds, quail, partridge, pheasants, as well as water fowl, ducks and honker Canadian Geese.

During my time of punishment with the Damascus 12 gauge double conventional wisdom said it is OK to shoot low brass shells. But NOT ok for high brass.

I shot low brass for years with no apparent danger. Never high brass.

quote:

Originally posted by The Dane:
Why bother?

I agree. Just build a 35 Whelen to begin with.

Those who never experiment will never discover anything or learn anything new. I guess that's ok if they don't want to. The world would still be in the stone age with that attitude.

quote:

Alternately you can depend on the old, tried and undependable , old school method of hard bolt lift, flattened primers, blown primers, case separation which has been proven to be the acceptable "standard" of generic shooters but at the same time worthless in defining exact pressures taking into account the vast numbers of various cases, calibers and rifles.

But I don't use those methods to 'work up' loads,,as I said I take them out of reloading manuals that have been published by those that use the expensive equipment.
I do keep those indicators in mind though as they can pop up at any time and you must be aware of them and know what they are tell you.

High brass/Low brass means little or nothing about the shells PSI. It was a common idea that High Brass was a more powerfull load.
Actual PSI ratings of heavy shot load shells are sometimes lower than lighter payload rounds. Not always though.
Most shotshell ammo is loaded to the max service pressure SAAMI allows now to make sure customers semi autos work.
Specialty loads in low PSI are available from places like RST.
But assuming a low brass Remington or Winchester shell off the shelf is lower psi than a High Brass or even a Mag round is a bad guess.
They are all around 11+K psi in 12ga. Much too high for damascus and other vintage shooters. You have to roll your own with specific componets shown to keep the psi down.
I like it in 5K range and it's easy to do with loads right out of the books of several powder mfgs.Some are in 4K and down.

I've had and have a few A.J.Aubreys/Meriden Firearms guns too.
One is pictured on the Meriden Firearms website now haveing sold it to it's current owner. A high grade Gough engraved 12ga 32"bbled gun. damascus bbls of course that got shot by me for a couple years w/smokeless.
A Twist Steel single bbl hammerless single bbl I still have & shoot.
$50 off a gunshow table in NRA poor condition.
A lot of work to bring it around and certainly not worth the time/return equation but I still enjoy doing the work on odd and rarely seen items.

A deluxe&upgraded Model 15 22pump just went away to a new owner too after a lot of restoration and custom work.
My unintentional Meriden/Aubrey collection is dwindling !

I get your take on seat of the pants experimenting. It's a dangerous undertaking. I don't do things without serious thought and research. Even old published reloading data has to be carefully researched as it's been updated with better lab results over the years.
But I do shake my head at todays ultra careful attitude towards everything out there.
Can't do a thing w/o someone jumping in and warning against the dangers of this or that.
Usually a statistical pie chart in hand to backup their point.
God help us all...