I have had different people tell that blue dot can be used in the 223. has anyone tried this and if so what bullet weight and grains of powder. reluctant to try this without some advice from people who have actually done this.

You can achieve about 22 hornet levels, with just about any bullet weight.

It's not for the beginner, but minimum of about 4 grains and work up to your desired velocity. For specific recommendations, I believe Varmint Al still has load data on his site, and many are listed here that a search will turn up. HTH, Dutch.

send a PM to Seafire. He'll be glad I'm sure to give you a helping hand. roger

Thanks to Seafire's pioneering work in the area, I've found Blue Dot to be an outstanding and consistent powder in .223 for slightly reduced loads. I settled on 13.5 grains with a 50 grain jacketed bullet for 2850 fps in my gun. You can go slightly higher, but what's the point? It also works well in my Hornet and K-Hornet at about 200 fps below "full power" loads.

quote:

send a PM to Seafire.

Awww I wouldn't bother...

This will keep you both busy and also out of trouble.. just always remember to work up...

Blue Dot Range Report: 223 Caliber ( Full )

Bullet Weights Tested:
1. 35 grain Hornady V Max
2. 40 grain Hornady Vmax
3. 45 grain Sierra SP
4. 50 grain Sierra SMP
5. 52 grain Sierra Boat Tail Match
6. 55 grain Winchester FMJ

Rifle Used: Ruger 77 Mk 2, VT 26 inch Barrel, Stainless Steel First yr Model

Case: Lake City Surplus, previously fired

Primer: Remington 6 ½

Powder: Blue Dot

Charge Weight Tested: 4 grains to 14 grains.


Weather: Sunny, NO clouds, 80 degrees, NO wind,

Altitude: 2000 ft

Humidity: Very Low


Field Results:


35 grain Hornady V Max:

4 grs: 1284 fps
5 grs: 1488 fps
6 grs: 1862 fps
7 grs: 2163 fps
8 grs: 2392 fps

9 grs: 2636 fps
10 grs: 2722 fps
11 grs: 3076 fps
12 grs: 3205 fps
13 grs: NO Reading
14 grs: 3518 fps

15 grs: NO Reading, Too hot, Extractor Marks, Scrapped Case
16 grs: NO Reading, Too Hot Blew Primer


Hornady 40 grain Vmax:

4 grs: 1161 fps
5 grs: 1538 fps
6 grs: 1798 fps
7 grs: 2148 fps

8 grs: 2243 fps
9 grs: 2539 fps
10 grs: 2771 fps
11 grs: 2956 fps

12 grs: 3013 fps
13 grs: 3218 fps
14 grs: 3375 fps


Sierra 45 grain SP

4 grs: 1239 fps
5 grs: 1447 fps
6 grs: 1688 fps
7 grs: 1880 fps

8 grs: 2118 fps
9 grs: 2363 fps
10 grs: 2553 fps
11 grs: 2811 fps

12 grs: 2875 fps
13 grs: 3008 fps
14 grs: 3164 fps


Sierra 50 grains SMP

4 grs: 1064 fps
5 grs: 1345 fps
6 grs: 1624 fps
7 grs: 1788 fps

8 grs: 2033 fps
9 grs: 2257 fps
10 grs: 2466 fps
11 grs: 2655 fps
12 grs: 2779 fps

13 grs: 2882 fps
14 grs: 3038 fps


Sierra 52 grain Boattail Hollow Point Match

4 grs: 1061 fps
5grs: 1460 fps
6 grs: 1632 fps
7 grs: 1916 fps

8 grs: 2142 fps
9 grs: 2225 fps
10 gr: NO Reading
11 grs: 2673 fps

12 grs: 2782 fps
13 grs: 2879 fps
14 grs: 3012 fps


Winchester 55 grain FMJ

4 grs: 896 fps
5 grs: 1264 fps
6 grs: 1568 fps
7 grs: 1825 fps
8 grs: 1994 fps

9 grs: 2201 fps
10 grs: 2328 fps
11 grs: 2453 fps

12 grs: 2677 fps
13 grs: 2821 fps
14 grs: 2915 fps



Notes:

1. IN the evaluation of the 223, I came further to the conclusion of the versatility of the 223 in the use of training new shooters, and for a very versatile varmint caliber.
2. Essentially the 223 can be loaded to the specs of a 22 Long rifle, a 218 Bee, a 221 Fireball, a 222 Remington, a 22 Hornet, and a 22 Win Mag., while allowing the shooter to be able to pick the type of bullet that he prefers.
3. Bullets were limited to use of 35 grains to 55 grains. Heavier bullets will not serve any purpose unless a 223 is to be used for deer hunting. I do not believe that their would be a significant difference in the use of a 55 grain bullet vs a 60 grain bullet.
4. The recoil on the lighter loads using 4 to 6 grains of powder had minimal recoil if any at all. These would be ideal for young shooters being trained.
5. Noise level on the lighter loads ( 4 to 6 grains) were on par with a rim fire. An increase in noise level was very noticeable above 7 grains, but still very acceptable. ( No sounding like a rim fire any more)

Noted Observations:

1. It was noted but not considered part of the testing, with a tree used as a back stop for some of the testing, that all bullets ( 45 to 55 grains)penetrated thru the tree at a distance of 20 yds.
2. The diameter of the tree was measured at 5 inches.
3. The 40 grain Vmax loads failed to penetrate the tree at loads above 10 grs, above 2771 fps. However at 10 grains and less, the bullets penetrated thru the tree and did a large amount of damage ( like turning the wood into tooth picks) on the exit side of the tree. The penetration stopped at the 5 grain load.


Some of the Author’s Conclusions:

1. I learned some significant items beyond the versatility of the 223 with the bullets tested, but focusing on its use in the field, got some ideas.
2. A light rifle such as a Winchester Featherweight or Rugers Compact model with a 16.5 inch barrel or the Ultra Light with a 20 inch barrel would make a good combo with the use of Blue Dot.
3. Since the powder is burned cleanly in the first 10 to 12 inches of barrel, the shorter barrels are not handicappiing velocity in the lighter shorter rifles.
4. The penetration of the 40 grain Vmax into the tree did make me ponder the use of those plastic tip varmint rounds as potential loads for small deer for youth shooters. Just like my observations in the larger calibers, the plastic tipped bullet seem to do a lot more damage, at velocities under 2700 fps. The Vmax surprised me. This is a decision any shooter will have to test on his own and make their own decisions. I am just passing on that I saw potential merit in the application.
5. Although one has to weigh out the potential of Plastic Tipped Varmint bullets on bigger game like deer and antelope, some of these loads in real life use, utilizing Barnes’s X bullets in 22 caliber I can recommend. They make a 45 grain, 50 grain and 53 grain bullet. The way I saw much better penetration and more damage in wood, at the lower range velocities, 2200 to 2700 fps, this would make a good deer load in many parts of the USA, and recoil is minimal.


I did not test any bigger bullets as I feel that those tested would be represent the best potential with the powder. 60, 63, 64, 65 grain bullets and then the larger match bullets did not give what I considered useful velocity when I have shot them before with Blue Dot, in respect to their field design uses.


best regards...
seafire

hmm, 35 grain v-max's at 2500-2700 fps range sounds fun, hows the expansion/explosiveness on varmints with that load. I was thinking of a reduced load for closer in varminting in .223

My target load for the .222 Remington is 11 grain Blue Dot, bullet weight 50/52 grain. Precision is as good as with full N133 loads, lead required for shootinmg the running boar is a little longer. No pressure signs at all, little report/heating/recoil, too.

DUK, I'm assuming you use this in some sort of boar TARGET game? Not near enough joules to meet wild game requirements, right? FWIW, Dutch.

18 gr Blue Dot 33 gr Vmax 2.17 jammed into the lands is 4100 fps with no pressure sign half the time and 4200 fps with bad pressure sign the other half the shots.

Don't do that.

3600 fps is the speed limit for heavy shooting and avoiding bore cleaning.

15 gr Blue Dot 33 gr Vmax is 3600 fps and low pressure.

It burns clean and the barrel does not get warm, so I can shoot 500 rounds without cleaning or waiting to cool down, and still have moa accuracy.

My notes from yesterday in a rifle that I had never shot before:

quote:

1) Ruger #1 single shot falling block rifle, in .223 Remington varmint model. It cost me $542 out the door.
6.5x20x40 Leupold vari-iii boosted to 13x40x40
This rifle showed up this week with terrible Copper fouling, but good condition for 3 rd hand.
I cleaned the bore with Butch's Bore shine, Foul Out, more Butch's, ect, until I could see no copper and then I burnished it with Lyman Moly bore cream.

b) 15 gr Blue Dot 33 gr Vmax moly, 2.170" OAL does not reach lands,
a) a fouling shot an inch low and I corrected
b) 0.4" 3 shot group @ 50yards
c) 0.92" 5shot group @ 100yards
d) 0.46" 5shot group @ 100yards
e) 0.9" 5shot group @ 100yards
f) 1.02" 5shot group @ 100yards
g) 0.61" 5shot group @ 100yards
h) 0.75" 5shot group @ 100yards
i) 0.3" 5 shot group @ 50yards

That is an average of .78" 5 shot @100 yards in the a little wind

I knew the gusty wind was driving the group size, so I did the last group at 50 yards.

I have hundreds of rounds of that ammo already loaded, but I need to try bullets seated further out for that rifle.

I learned about Blue Dot from Seafire here on AR and I think he learned it from Calhoon.

Thousands of rounds and 12# of Blue Dot later, I am grateful to both of them.

http://www.jamescalhoon.com
http://www.jamescalhoon.com/bee.php
http://www.jamescalhoon.com/tobee2.php


The title, "To Bee, or 223, Revisited" is obviously a play on Hamlet, but the idea is that the .223 can be downloaded to the 218 Bee for the purpose of shooting gophers. The revisited part is where he figures out that Blue Dot burns so clean.

quote:

Originally posted by MustangGreg66:
hmm, 35 grain v-max's at 2500-2700 fps range sounds fun, hows the expansion/explosiveness on varmints with that load. I was thinking of a reduced load for closer in varminting in .223

That 35 grain bullet sucks! It is not very aerodynamic at all... Move up to the 40 grain V Max, and life takes a whole different perspective...Sierra's 40 grain HP is also another great choice, and more economical!

Calhoon's 37 grain HP is also a great bullet for what you are looking for!

I'll second the 35gr; I had thought they'd be okay at the lower velocities, but no such luck.

have been away for awhile. good on you guys, I knew I could count on fellow forum members to give me the answers I was looking for. thanks to everyone for their input. now just have to get my butt in gear and try some of the loadings. reason I was asking, is that I am heading for the PD towns south of Malta, Montana the end of june. normally use 748 but have lbs of blue dot that should be used soon.

quote:

Originally posted by Dutch:
DUK, I'm assuming you use this in some sort of boar TARGET game? Not near enough joules to meet wild game requirements, right? FWIW, Dutch.

Yes, of course, it is called boar but is in fact made of paper, running in 2 s over 10 m at 60 m distance. No need to burn 22 grain of powder when you can do it with half the amount. The same applies of course to the static disciplines.

Another comment re. Blue Dot in .223's......is there any danger of detonation with these reduced loads, say in the lightest loads duplicating a rimfire or Hornet round? It wasn't that long ago, someone was carted off to the emergency when he reloaded a 7mm Mag with way less powder.......rifle and scope blown apart. Also would you want to cant muzzle up before firing as to position powder in these very light loads to be in contact with primer. r in s.

In the February 2001 "Handloader" magazine, John Haviland's article on reduced loads quotes Ron Rieber of Hodgdon as saying that there is a problem with reduced loads in cartridges with large powder capacities compared to their bore. The powder partially ignites sending the bullet into the bore and then lodging and stopping. The charge then fully ignites causing a pressure spike. He has been unable to reproduce this phenomena in the lab with a new barrel, however, in a rough throated .243 with a slow burning powder and reduced charge can make a pressure spike that will lock the bolt shut.


What does it all mean?
If you can get a very slow rifle powder to squib fire into an over bore rough throat filled with Copper, the bullet might get stuck, then you might blame the pressure spike on detonation and win $1,000,000 for being the first person to cause detonation intentionally.

Then move on to capturing big foot.
I would start with prosthetic surgery on a gorilla.

I really want to thank seafire for sharing his data. I used it to work up loads for my Colt HBAR A3 Precision AR rig. While none of the loads will cycle the action, that is fine with me. I was actaully very shocked to find that the subsonic and reduced 50 grain loadings gave better accuracy out of my 1 in 7 twist barrel than I was expecting. I was getting 1.5 and 1.25 inch groups which I find acceptable for what I plan on using them for. The report is almost non exsistent and there is no flash with the naked eye in the dark. I even worked up a 62 grain load which is very accurate.

Thanks again seafire. !!!

Seafire, Is the Sierra 40 gr HP bullet you praise their #1385 bullet? I'm putting together a Model 200 Stevens in 223 Rem for my 12 (soon to be 13) year old son and would like an economical bullet (and fragile at slightly reduced velocity) to load w/ Blue Dot to 3000-3200 fps. Am hoping to use it on prairie dogs. I already have (and will try) the 40 gr VM, NBT, and BK as well, as 50 gr TNT and SX bullets. Are there any other bullets I should try? Thanks. Gary T.