On my recent trip to RSA, I took reloads for my 30-338. These loads were carefully weighed, and assembled. It was a load that I had used without problem before, and which my gunsmith has used without incident for a long while. While warm, it is not a max load according to reloading books. After transport to South Africa in my checked luggage, about half the rounds fired blew their primers.

On return, the loads were disassembled. They contain the right powder. They weighed loads are within 1/10 of a grain of the intended load. The bullet was a 180 grain BT by Nosler, and the diameter was less than .306 or .307. Accuracy even with the blown primers is excellent.

Anyone have any ideas what caused my problem? Ku-dude

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Originally posted by ku-dude:
On my recent trip to RSA, I took reloads for my 30-338. These loads were carefully weighed, and assembled. It was a load that I had used without problem before, and which my gunsmith has used without incident for a long while. While warm, it is not a max load according to reloading books. After transport to South Africa in my checked luggage, about half the rounds fired blew their primers.

On return, the loads were disassembled. They contain the right powder. They weighed loads are within 1/10 of a grain of the intended load. The bullet was a 180 grain BT by Nosler, and the diameter was less than .306 or .307. Accuracy even with the blown primers is excellent.

Anyone have any ideas what caused my problem? Ku-dude

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Sometime ago I read the same thing happened to an American on Safari. He said that his guide told him the bouncing in a jeep caused the powder to break into smaller granules creating this problem, Remember most African hunters used CORDITE which is cut like spaghetti. Maybe this is your answer. Harry

Ku-dude. At what temperature did you work up your reloads? I've never hunted South Africa (dammit!) but I understand that temperatures are similar to what I encounter here in Southern Arizona. I usually work up my loads in the summer when it's really hot, and then fine tune them in the fall when it cools off a bit.
You did state that while your loads were not maximum, they were on the warm side. It could very well be that the hotter temperatures you may have encountered pushed the pressure levels in your ammo higher than you expected.
Just a guess on my part.
Paul B.

I had the same thing happen to me when I went to Zim, but I was using WMR in a 300wby. WMR is a ball powder, and though it was'nt max it was a compressed load so that bouncing in a jeep would not cause the powder to be broken up further. I too have wondered why the difference. I live in New Mexico, and I worked this load up when temps were in the 90's. It did'nt get over 80 in Zim. Go figure

ku-dude,

You got a good one here. I don't really have any bright ideas, but I'd like to throw some fuel on the fire.

I'm not sure I buy the idea of the powder grinding down enough to do that in such a short period of time. The only well documented case of this that I recall was about 15 years ago when a Montana farmer touched off his 30-30 and it literally exploded. The factory box of 30-30's had been bouncing around in his glove compartment in the pick-up for a year! The powder has virtually turned to POWDER.

I'm also not sure about the temperature angle. I ran your load through a program and, assuming you're getting around 3,000 fps, a 35 degree increase in temp would equate to only about 4,000 psi. Not enough to blow a primer.

Two other possibilities come to mind. First (and very unlikely) is a batch of primers with thin or soft metal. The other is simply some debris in the barrel. During the days hunt it is possible for a bug to crawl in, or perhaps a small piece of vegetation from wherever.

Like I said, you got a good one here.

Steve

What powder are you using?

Regards

Ray Smith

For info

Some people have had guns come apart with RE22 Lot#25083.

Regards

Ray Smith

What primers were you using?

I've had loads that were several grains under listed max blow out Federal 210 primers in a 25-06 and a 6mm Remington. Changing to CCI200 or WLR primers, all else the same, solved the problem. Thus, my suspicion would go to the primers unless you can definitely eliminate them as the source of the problem.

[This message has been edited by LE270 (edited 08-05-2001).]

Now hold it.....

WHO has had a gun come apart with Rel 22 lot....???

There have been reports of "higher than normal pressures", but none about guns coming apart.

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May I be half the man my dog thinks I am.

I have been hauling reloads up and back from Africa for 13 yrs, and never have heard of such a pressure problem.

Not saying it "can't" happen, but sure don't have any answer.

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May I be half the man my dog thinks I am.

How many times have you use this brass, if you are shooting mild to hot loads the primer pockets could be loose on some of the brass you are using. reload a few that blew the primers and see how they seat, if they go in very easy than that could be your problem. If you are using hot loads some powders are heat sensitive and could give you some added pressure if worked up loads in cool conditions and then you are useing them in hot weather. Just something to look for because some soft brass is only good for a few reloads before being thrown out. Good Luck.

Terry...check out www.benchrest.com fellow reports his 40X went south with RL22.

Two things to think about with respect to pressure (1) did any of your ammo lay exposed to the sun for any length of time. Ammo left in a vehiclcan overheat. (2) I read somewhere, I don't recall where, that the extreme cold experienced during the long flight to Africa could have an effect on some reloading components.

Just a side note.... I've always liked the idea that if you wanted a horse to work harder, you got a bigger stronger horse, you didn't try to over feed a little one to get more out of him. The moral of the story is if you need more velocity go to a bigger cartridge don't try to max out a smaller one.

The powder was H4831. I worked up loads in 95-100 degree Florida heat, and it didn't get above 85 degrees where we were in RSA. The brass was once fired and brand new Federal Nickel and oft fired WW brass. I disassembled one round of those I brought back, and there was not fracturing of grains of powder. The primer was WLMR, brass colored, and was the same lot used in prior loadings. The bullets were from a different lot of Nosler 180 BTs, but they miked .305-.306.

I am working up the nerve to go fire some more of them, and see if it is a geography thing. Magnetic waves, coriolis effect, the Burmuda Triangle: give me a better explanation that it got bounced too much.

It has really got me scratching my head. Ku-dude

There was a similar discusion on a board a couple of years back where two suppositions were advanced. No conclusions.

The first was that in repeated handling, the extruded powder granules broke down and altered the burn rate of that powder.

The second was that powder being hygroscopic, if loaded in conditions of high humidity that changes the burn rate.

The first option was duplicated my someone in that discussion, yet others using ammo stored in automotive glove boxes for months or years, never had the problem. Only way that could occur in a loaded cartridge is with significant jostling in a case with a low density of powder, certainly less than a compressed load. On the second option relating to humidity, if the charges weighed the same when broken down after the fact, that shouldn't have been a problem, but moisture will change the burn rate.

I know I didn't add much, but I too would like to know the answer.

On my particular rifle, they were the exact same reloads I was using on the bench. I buy in bulk so everything was exactly the same. I live in New Mexico, we don't know what humidity is. I had blown primers, but I also had really hard bolt lift to go with it. I have not figured it out yet either..

Admittedly this is pretty far out, but ...

Could the problem be your rifle instead of the loads? Could something have happened to or changed in the rifle as a result of the travel? Could something have changed, permitting the firing pin to travel farther, denting the primers more, or even piercing them? Could some permanent obstruction have somehow been put in the barrel? Is there any other change that could have occurred that would result in this problem?

All I can say is mine is a very expensive custom rifle, and I take great pains in making sure it is packed right, I bought an expensive rifle case for it, and the inside of the barrel never see's anything but powder and copper. I have thought about it often, and cannot come up with anything. Interesting huh?

Santa Claus. I find your post about problems with WMR very interesting. As I mentioned working up my loads in the Arizona summer.(100 plus, mostly plus ) Then I retest the loads as temps cool down to see if I need more powder to equal the velocity originally received or just to leave well enough alone. I too, used a .300 Win. Mag. and at 105 degrees got nearly 3100 FPS. When retested the load at 80 degrees, I encountered a bright mark from the ejector and the case was very tight in the chamber and difficult to withdraw.
I did write Winchester about this phenomena, but it's been over a year, and so far the "Big W" has not condescened to give me an answer.
I got a real good deal on the powder, but I had to take all the guy had, 15 pounds of the stuff. It sure works good in one of my .270's as well.
I wonder if this powder gives higher pressures when the temp goes down? Is this why Winchester discontinued it? What do I do with 13.5 pounds of possibly unuseable power?
I know. Save it for the 4th of July next year and have a spectacular fiery display. NOT!
Guess I'll just have to play with the stuff some more and see what happens.
What really hurts, is "Big W" has the attitude that they do not have to notify the public when they drop something. If I didn't have a friend that sells reloading stuff. I'd never have found out about WMR being dropped.
I wonder why they have so much trouble getting a good slow burning ball powder. I even heard a rumor that W-760 might be dropped, although I have not confirmed that one. I use a lot of that one too.
I like the ball powders. They measure well in my powder measures and I don't have to weigh each charge. Gets to be a pain when loading up around 500 rounds for a shoot.
Paul B.

I think that vibration from shipping is the problem. Some of the stuff I've read specifically warns against putting completed rounds in the vibrator cleaner. The vibration breaks down the powder, and exposes more surface area. The powder burns much faster and can cause extreme high pressure.

More possibilities:

Consider that whatever caused the problem may have occurred between the time the loads left your hand and the time you picked them up again at your destination.

1. What was the temperature and pressure in the baggage compartment of the airliner? Could either of those have been significantly lower than normal, and, if so, could that have changed either the powder or primers (either chemical or physical change) in such a way as to bring about your experienced result?

2. Is it possible that your baggage, containing the loads, may have been X-rayed, especially high-dosage X-rays, and, if so, could such irradiation have caused either a chemical or a physical change in either the powder or the primers? (I'm guessing that whatever changed, if indeed it was a change in the loads and not the rifle, was more likely to have been a chemical rather than a physical change because you say that when you pulled the bullets and looked at the powder it did not look different.)

3. As I wrote in a previous post, my suspicion still goes to the primers rather than the powder. If that is correct, detecting a chemical or physical change within the primer would be much more difficult than detecting a change in the powder. One way of testing this theory would be to pull the bullets on some of the loads in which the primers are blowing. Then discard the powder and bullets and replace them with exactly the same amount of new powder and new bullets from the same batches as those you pulled and/or discarded. Then fire those newly-loaded rounds. If you still get blown primers, this would be excellent evidence in support of the theory that the problem is in the primers.

[This message has been edited by LE270 (edited 08-05-2001).]

Maybe I've too little else to do, or I've become obsessed or something, but here are some more suggestions:

1. Take some of the powder from the defective loads and compare it under a microscope with a sample of the powder out of the canister from the same lot. If you can get access to one of those microscopes that allows side by side comparisons of two samples, so much the better. Such an examination might show some change in the powder that is not visible to the naked eye.

2. Pull the powder and bullets from several of the defective loads, then load that powder and those bullets in other cases with new primers from the same lot that you had loaded. The fire those loads to see whether you get the blown primers. If you do, this would give strong evidence to the claim that something happened to the powder to change it. If you do not get blown primers, then you do not have conclusive evidence, but it would tend to suggest that the primer was the problem.

3. Fire some of the defective loads in a different rifle in which other loads with exactly the same specifications have been fired successfully to see whether the problem occurs in that (second) rifle. If it does, this is conclusive evidence that the problem is the loads. If it doesn't, then you don't know for sure, but it may suggest that the problem is with your rifle.

4. How were your loads packaged? Is it possible that something in the packaging caused a chemical interaction with the powder or the primer compound, especially if the loads underwent very high or low temperatures, or low pressures?

[This message has been edited by LE270 (edited 08-06-2001).]

I am a 747-400 Captain and fly international routes, you can rule out any serious temperature or vibration problems from a single long flight or even a series of flights. I have had some minor vibration problems with camera equipment over the years, but that is after more hours aloft than any normal types will fly in several lifetimes. The baggage compartments are heated, pressurized and temperature regulated as carefully as the passenger cabin.

Perhaps a problem with the powder coating, due to past exposure to moisture? Heat might then have some nonreversable effect.

Interesting problem!

ka-dude,

Without chemical analysis certainty will be impossible, but based upon your description I would place my money on the ammo being left out in the sun somewhere along the line. A high temperature excursion is the only likely phenomena that can permanently alter the powder's burn rate, and it always alters it towards the faster side.

H4831, even in it's various forms, is a stable and predictable powder. Vibration is very unlikely to do it. Africa has no monopoly on bumpy roads. Chemical decomposition is also unlikely. A change in the primer's detonation would at most change the pressure little more than the equivalent of 1 grain of powder, which is not sufficient to cause the pressures you describe.

Those bullets probably measured .3076"-3078". I think you need to calibrate your micrometer. I doubt Nosler is making .308 bullets that measure less than .3070"

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Warren Jensen

Warren@lostriverballistic.com
lostriverballistic.com

My vote goes to either firing the round in a hot chamber, or the ammo was hot when fired.

After dozens of flights, and countless thousands of miles bouncing around dirt tracks, I've never had anything like that happen to my ammo.

Consider sending a sample of the powder to the manufacturer with as much information as possible. Perhaps they'll analyze it and get back to you.

George

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Shoot straight, shoot often, but by all means, use enough gun!

A few years back I had a similar problem.
I was using Nosler bullets, #4350 powder and Sako brass with CCI magnum primers, and had loaded sufficient ammo to last two seasons. The trip out to the Kalahari the second season included about 300km of dirt and the ammo got rattled around in the back of the cruiser even though packed in MTM boxes.
I had major pressure signs and hard extraction. Fortunately I had loaded some fresh ammo and I used it for the rest of the cull.
When I went to pull the ammo, I found that there had been some metal reaction (fusion?)between the bullets and the brass, while everything else looked OK.
Oddly enough, I had much the same problem with swaged lead hollow based 38 wadcutters a few years later. The lead had fused itself to the nickel plated cases and fortunately I was shooting my 357 at the time.
There were two shots in the cylinder that felt odd, when I went to extract the cases the two odd ones had ruptured where the bullet starts and had shot the ring of brass and the bullet downrange.
This ammo was a few years old. I tried to pull some using an inertia puller but it would not co-operate, so I cut one open and found that the lead had become almost "glued" to the inside of the nickle case.

Can I suggest that avoidance is best ie reduce loads and do not attempt to fire remaining rounds, pull the bullets and use them to work up a more conservative load which will give you peace of mind.

Bullet drop is for me nowhere near as important as total confidence in my rifle and that total confidence comes IMHO from conservatism.