What a great forum!!! I have searched it left, right, and upside down and appreciate all that I have learned.

Here is my situation. I have a 13 year old son that is dying to go big game hunting, has saved up $500 for a rifle, and has his heart set on a 30-06 as the "one-gun" solution. I have to agree with him, so I am looking for a low-recoil load for him.

This past week we loaded up a 125 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip behind 40.5 grains of H4895. He like the load, but I could tell that the recoil was just a little bit too much for him. In looking through the forum, it seems that many of you are shooting Blue Dot loads - however it appears that most are shooting cast bullets and those that are shooting jacketed bullets are shooting in the 150 grain range.

Does anyone have experience with jacketed 120 - 130 grain bullets and Blue Dot? I am looking for something that will push it along at around 2000 - 2300 fps.

Just so you know I have also sent a PM to Seafire as it seems he is the guru of the Blue Dot load.

Thanks.

Idlechater, I might be swimming against the current on this issue but I am of the opinion that the slower powders don't whack the shooter as hard/quickly as faster burning powders. With that in mind I have used 58 grains of H4831SC behind either a 150 Hornady Interlok or a 150 Remington Core-lokt bullet that delivers exceptional accuracy in every 06 I've tried it in. These run about 2500 ft/sec from a 22" barrel. BTW, my duaghter has shot this load in the Ruger M77 that I eventually gave her without being beaten up by it. Good Luck to you and your son and hope you can find a load that he can live with. You might invest in a Past Recoil Pad for him to help absorb some of recoil he is feeling. And also remember, when he is shooting at game he won't feel anything when he fires his rifle.

Loading a 110 grainer at about 2600 fps should be fairly mild. A nice pad may help any more. Let him shoot more standing rather than on the bench and they may help.
Good Luck

Lucky:

I appreciate your thoughts. I may be all wet here, but wouldn't 58 grains of any powder, and a 150 grain ball result in more recoil energy than 40.5 grains and a 125 grain ball? As for recoil pads, we have put a limbsaver on his 30-06.

Dwight:

Thanks for your idea, and I agree that when shooting from a bench you seem to have more "perceived" recoil. Unfortunately, we are required to shoot from a bench at our gun club, and areas clear for shooting other than the gun club are few and far between.

I have used the Nosler 125 BT in .308 and like them. However I like the 150 grain bullet better for .308 and 30-06. I am sure seafire will help you with bluedot loads. I have tried them and they work well. You might try sr4759 also. I used it in my 45-70 loads in my contender and liked it. The past pad will help for sure. I wear one all the time when shooting off the bench.

Jacobite:

I had not seen the Past Pad before and will have to give one a try. The Limbsaver recoil pad certainly made a difference. Does the manufacture of SR4759 provide low recoil recommendations? I am somewhat of a newbie at reloading (especially "off book" type) and would be a little leery of trying to cook my own. I am not wedded to the 125 grain ball. They did pretty well with the H4895 powder, but the groups were larger than I would like. The only reason that I am thinking about that size bullet is it is large enough to dispatch a deer and also should provide for less recoil than a 150 grain bullet. Am I missing something here?

Idlechatter,
You can find info for 4759 in Speers book and probably on IMR's website. It is actually a popular reduced load powder. I always found my 06 would shine with 150-165 grain bullets. Your son should be able to handle a reduced load useing 150's. The PAST pad is great, Cabelas sells their own brand also. I shoot alot of steel butt plated rifles so the PAST pad is automatic for me. I allready had to have my shoulder operated on once don't want to have to do it again. At least not soon.

As off the shelf options you might try the Remington Managed Recoil (125 @ an actual 2550 fps) or the Federal Low Recoil (170 @ a claimed 2000 fps) to see if your son likes either. My son used the Federal load this year but found the trajectory an issue, though he put two deer in the freezer for four tries. We used the Remington load last year; three shots for three deer. My son is going to start working up to full power 150s this coming year.

Nordrseta:

Have you compared the recoil from the Remington product with those that can be reloaded using the H4895 reduced recoil loads? I like to reload so I never even considered the off the shelf options. I might just have to buy a box and see how they perform.

23gr. blue dot behind the 125 gr. bullet should do just what you want. roger

Bartsche:

Is there anything that I need to be concerned about regarding insufficient case volume of a 23 grain load? Do I use a standard large rifle primer with this load?

Thanks.

Idlechater, get yourself a copy of Lyman's Cast bullet handbook. In it you will find listings for all kinds of cast bullets for numerous calibers. Powder range will vary, but will run from the 1500 to 2500 fps range on the '06 size cartridges. I'm currently using 16.5 grains of Unique with a flat nose 150 grain bullet intended for the 30-30. I'm using it to practice all my field position shooting. It enables me to concentrate wholly on form, and not worry about flinching due to recoil. It is listed in that book, and I simply substituted a jacketed bullet for the listed cast. Your mileage may vary but I've fire many,many bullets downrange this way with no problem whatsoever. Good luck.

24-25 grains of Blue Dot and Hornady SSP shoot pretty good for me. So far I have found no takers to test the load. It should work as well as the 30 Herrett did and many deer fell to that
Oh well maybe around Christmass I will get out some more with that gun and load.

I loaded some Remington 110 RNSPs at about 2100 fps for a friends son last year in the 30-30 with Blue Dot. Complete penetration and dead deer with broadside shot.

Any of the lighter loadings, lighter bullets will require that he pick "best" shots and that is a good thing.

284 - In looking through the archives it seems that people are discouraged in using a cast bullet receipe with jacketed bullets. Am I reading these posts wrong?

TC - I am a big proponent of shot selection. I shot over 400 rounds this year preparing for my elk hunt. Wouldn't you know it, I took my elk at 30 yards!! That said, if I can figure out a soft load for my son in a 150 grain ball, I would be all for it. Personally I shoot a 165 BTSP for antelope, deer, and elk and they have never failed me a single time.

well based on some of the negativity reports above....

1. I have never had any bullets stick with Blue Dot... those that claim that one shouldn't use Jacketed Bullets with reduced load data from cast bullets... probably is just passing on wive's tales with no personal experience... and by chance if they had a bad experience.. I'd blame it on the handloaders procedures and fault..over the fault of the data or the load.....

2. Since it can be possible to double charge a reduced load... load technic is paramount....

Always but ALWAYS....do the following....charge a case with powder, THEN SEAT THE BULLET... BEFORE GOING ON TO THE NEXT ONE...

That way, you get no double charges...

3. Blue Dot loads listed below are not position sensitive, nor whether sensitive so far in all the experiences from myself or anyone else who has used them.. if they have had problems, I have not been informed...

where SR 4759 is mentioned above, I highly recommend its use also! It has proven very accurate also....

in the 06, any bullet weight from 110 to 180 grains can use any of the following...

30 grains of... 2400, RL 7, IMR 4198, H 4198, H4227, IMR 4227... standard Rifle primers... and no filler needed...all are minute of bambi in any rifle I have ever tested them in ( 30/06!)

But as requested....

Blue Dot Range Report: 30/06 Springfield

Rifle Used: Winchester Model 70

Barrel Length; 24 inch

Case Remington
Primer: CCI Large Rifle


150 grain Remington SP: Case: Remington, CCI/LR Primer, OAL: 81.36mm

21 grs: 2057 fps
22 grs: 2180 fps
23 grs: 2225 fps
24 grs: 2272 fps

25 grs: 2363 fps
26 grs: 2421 fps
27 grs: 2422 fps
28 grs: 2512 fps

Consider 27 grains as max load for reliable brass life. Recoil was greatly reduced, ( guestimate of 50% or more!) Accuracy was excellent in my Winchester Model 70. There are a lot of good bullets available that would work well at these velocities. My favorite is the ballistic tip and the 150 grain round noses. The 150 grain FN meant for the 30/30 would also be a good bullet. Speer’s Magtip also does an excellent job.

I would not hesitate to use these loads on any deer. At 24 grains, a 3.5 inch high zero at 100 yds, would be close to dead on at 200 yds. Penetration is a lot better than most people would believe reading modern ballistic charts.
Good shot placement, and you would be surprised what these loads will do.

I have taken an Elk, ( cow) at 175 yds, that weight 650 lbs on the hoof. She was taken at a broadside shot at a dead gallop. The load was a 165 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip, with an MV of 2250fps. The bullet penetrated all the way thru and was lodged on the far side under the hide. It destroyed both lungs and the liver, while cutting the esophagus in half also. The Elk cow went 50 yds and expired.

This load was not being carried to try and prove a point. As typical in hunting, the wrong ammo got packed for the trip, in the rush to get going.
It was all I had with me, which meant use it, or NOHunt! I decided to hunt.
90 minutes or less, I had the Elk down!

165 grain Sierra SP: Fed 210 Primer, Win Brass, OAL: 82.50 mm

20 grains: 1852 fps
21 grains: 1894 fps
22 grains: 1986 fps
23 grains: 2047 fps

24 grains: 2102 fps
25 grains: 2157 fps
26 grains: 2228 fps

I recommend stopping at 25 grains. 26 grains gave a few stiff bolt extractions.


180 grain Remington SP: Fed 210 Primer, Win Brass, OAL: 80.85mm

20 grains: 1762 fps
21 grains: 1814 fps
22 grains: 1882 fps
23 grains: 1955 fps
24 grains: 2022 fps
25 grains: 2076 fps.

The Nosler Ballistic tip would be a GREAT bullet in these applications, due to it being able to open up at low velocities and be deadly on game. I prefer Round Nose bullets or bullets like Speers Mag Tip also in reduced loads.
Honorable mention will go to 170 grain 30/30 bullets from multiple manufacturers that were design to work in this velocity ranges.

Accuracy with all weights were exceptional.

cheers and good luck..
seafire

quote:

Originally posted by Idlechater:
Bartsche:

Is there anything that I need to be concerned about regarding insufficient case volume of a 23 grain load? Do I use a standard large rifle primer with this load?Thanks.

I'm not sure what you mean with the insufficient case volume but the load does not seem to be position sensitive if that's what you mean.

For the most part I've been using WLRM primers with no problem. roger

Seafire and Bartche:

I really appreciate your replies.

I will work up some loads this week and take my son out this weekend for a trial.

Can I expect that a 20 grain load of Blue Dot will have less recoil than a 40 grain load of H4895 given the same bullet weight?

Thanks.

As a rule of thumb 2 loads giving the same velocity, the one with less powder will give less recoil, due to less ejecta of matter out the bbl.

I don't know what build your son is but my son is on the slim side and he has been shooting a 30.06 since he was 14 and handles it very well. I had a nice recoil pad put on it that i'm sure helps with recoil as well. Here's the load he shoots in it....
Hornady 130gr SP
Rem Brass
CCI 200
51.5gr/IMR4064
this load doesn't seem to have a bad recoil to me and i've never heard him complain about the kick. Like i said he shoots it very well and has killed a truck load of deer with it.

Qtip:

I appreciate you sharing that load and your son's experience with me.

Idlechater,

After looking at my original post i didn't like the way it sounded. I just wanted to add that when i bought my son this gun two years ago it rocked his world with the 150gr and heavier weight bullets. I didn't want to give the impression that at 14 he just started shooting it with ease because like i said he pretty slim and that wasn't the case at all.
It wasn't until we worked up the load that i posted that he really began to handle the gun and shoot it with confidence. There was a noticeable difference in recoil (lighter) from day one with the 130gr load. He's 16 now and a little bigger and could probably shoot the heavier weights but he likes the mild recoil of this load and it's performance on game has been excellent so he still shoots it. Good Luck! Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Idlechater:
Seafire and Bartche:

I really appreciate your replies.

I will work up some loads this week and take my son out this weekend for a trial.

Can I expect that a 20 grain load of Blue Dot will have less recoil than a 40 grain load of H4895 given the same bullet weight?

Thanks.

This is really comparing apples with, well not apples, but here's the results of a recoil calculation using your 125 grain bullet with 40.5 grains of H4895 and Seafire's 27 grain BD load with a 150 grain bullet. Assuming an 8# rifle (for comparison) the H4895 load recoils at 9.47ft/lb and the BD load at 8.8ft.lb. Significant? Mebe/mebe not, but if you were to substitute the Nosler 125 in the Blue Dot equation, I think it would definately be significant. I don't know what the velocity would be but let's just guess 2600 (prob'ly high) but even so, the recoil is only 7.43 ft/lb. What's it all mean? More powder equals more ejecta, thus more recoil given same bullet weight. Just more to think about. Regards, Woody

quote:

Originally posted by Idlechater:
What a great forum!!! I have searched it left, right, and upside down and appreciate all that I have learned.

Here is my situation. I have a 13 year old son that is dying to go big game hunting, has saved up $500 for a rifle, and has his heart set on a 30-06 as the "one-gun" solution. I have to agree with him, so I am looking for a low-recoil load for him.

This past week we loaded up a 125 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip behind 40.5 grains of H4895. He like the load, but I could tell that the recoil was just a little bit too much for him. In looking through the forum, it seems that many of you are shooting Blue Dot loads - however it appears that most are shooting cast bullets and those that are shooting jacketed bullets are shooting in the 150 grain range.

Does anyone have experience with jacketed 120 - 130 grain bullets and Blue Dot? I am looking for something that will push it along at around 2000 - 2300 fps.

Just so you know I have also sent a PM to Seafire as it seems he is the guru of the Blue Dot load.

Thanks.

165gXBT 47.0g IMR4064

Woodie....

I know numbers on a calculator might show the two loads to be close together in recoil..

however, one of the things I have noticed about H 4895, is that even with its low velocity loads.. aka, youth loads from Hodgdon... it has a very loud boom to it compared to Blue Dot...or SR 4759...

I have noticed this, not only testing it in the 06, but also the 30/30, and the 223 & 22.250, and 243....

I also know that people ask about the difference in recoil on the 300 win Mag vs the 338 Mag....statistically the 338 should recoil more... but in my experience and shared by others, the 338 appears to recoil less... because it is more of a big shove backwards, versus the 300 Mag seems to be a slap or quick jab...

Granted it is strictly perception.. but it still has an impact on a shooter, especially someone new....

My recommendation to anyone is always pick a bullet weight and aim for 2250 fps ( 30/30 velocity), or if that is too slow, go for 2400 fps ( 300 Savage velocity)...

It still gives one a 200 yd load, when zeroed 3.5 inches high at 100 yds, with a spitzer bullet...

And the 125 grain B/Tip recommendation is an excellent recommendation, along with the Speer 130 grain 30/30 bullet.. kind of a semi flatnose...

One would also be surprised at the usefulness on deer of a 110 grain V Max at velocities under 2700 MV, particularly if hunting antelope sized deer..... or a lowly 110 grain Hornady SP....

Hey guys:

Great insights!

Tsturm - I shoot a 165gr ball behind 49.4 grains of 4064 and my son just can't take that. Nonetheless, I appreciate your thoughts.

Seafire - perhaps I should ask my question a little differently. I understand that according to the formula all that matters is ball weight, powder weight, and muzzle velocity. However, I am curious if the characteristics of the powder have an effect. Now I am going to talk way over my head for a second so don't flame me. It seems to me that slow versus fast, quick pressure curve versus slow pressure curve, etc., powder would have a different impact on perceived recoil due to different pressure curves. Am I wrong here?

I have always heard fast powders feel harder but I know a load of 7828 will screw me into the ground in my .300 mag but 4350 or 4831 feels more comfortable.

quote:

It seems to me that slow versus fast, quick pressure curve versus slow pressure curve, etc., powder would have a different impact on perceived recoil due to different pressure curves. Am I wrong here?

NOt in my opinion you are not wrong.. I am not a chemist.. but I also conclude that it has to do with the chemicals put in powder to make it perform...

I just load up a lot of different stuff and see what I get.... I had such good luck with Blue Dot.... that I tried it in a bunch of different calibers and got the same results in each... low recoil... and great accuracy...

chronographing them also showed Blue Dot to have the lowest deviation spreads of any powder that I have worked with...

H 4895 on the other hand has shown to be accurate in certain niches only... it has also shown to have a much louder boom associated with it, than other powders in my book, although it is certainly not alone in that respect...

just like Jacobite's obserbvations above.....

Blue Dot has performed well in every case that I have tested it in, except one.. and that surprised me, but after testing in 3 different rifles.. with the same results, I had to conclude the obvious...

That was in the 30/30 case! yet SR 4759 was a real performer!

SR 4759 has become the only powder I load in my 30/40 Krag, and the only one I use in my field hunting in the 8mm Mauser...

It has been kinda of a reward to get some of the emails back, that tell me on people's success with using blue dot loads I have posted...

The one that I enjoyed the most, tho, was a granddad, if I remember correctly... that had two grandsons aged like 10 and 12, who were going out on their first hunts with grandpa, since they didn't have a dad around....

Grandpa was going to take them hunting on family property in Arkansas, Oklahoma, NE Texas and Louisiana... the rifles were chambered in 257 Roberts using 100 grain bullets...

I got an email back from the Granddad, saying that the boys ended up taking a total of 7 deer in 4 states!

I can imagine the thrill of young men at that age and having that sort of success..... that alone made it all worthwhile on the time and effort I spend coming up with these loads....

Because I want to pass that experience on to kids... without them getting bad experiences of getting beat up by recoil...before they are experienced enough to handle it....

But then after learning that an MV of 2250 fps, and a 3.5 inch high zero at one hundred yds... gave me a dead zero at 200 yds, and 3.5 inches low at 240 or so... with 99% of all deer taken at less than 100 yds,.... and reducing recoil so much... why do people need a 500 yd load, with the energy to drop an elephant... to take a 100 or 150 lb deer at 75 to 100 yds???

But now REM and Federal are peddling reduced loads ( at higher prices)... so there is a need for that concept....so I have been proven right...

A lot of adults have contacted me to be using the same stuff.. even if just at the range, and to have off season, cheap target practice...

I do carry reduced loads in the field.. but also loads that are full power...depends on where I am hunting and what I am hunting...

Seafire:

I will be getting some Blue Dot this evening and my son and I will load up some 125's with 23 grains of powder. I will be very interested in seeing how they perform compared with the H4895 loads we shot last weekend.

On another note, my son just made the decision to spend his very hard earned $500 on a 30-06 rifle. Makes me proud, that in today's world there are still a few young men that would rather spend their hard earned cash on a rifle they will carry to their death than on a video game system.

Regards,

I think he is makeing a wise choice with the 30-06. You will find a load that he can shoot comfortably untill he grows into full power loads. As Seafire says most situations don't even need full power loads. Too many of us have Magnumitius and think we have to shoot heavy loads.

cheers
seafire

quote:

Originally posted by Idlechater:
Seafire:


On another note, my son just made the decision to spend his very hard earned $500 on a 30-06 rifle. Makes me proud,
Regards,

Your son should be proud of you too, for spending time with him and establishing a good sence of values. roger

We loaded up some Blue Dot loads last night, as well as some of the H4895 loads that he shot last weekend. We will be taking them to the range this weekend to compare and see if there is a preference. One thing that I can't do is know for sure what kind of velocity I am getting with the Blue Dot, as I don't have a chronograph. I am assuming that a 23 grain charge will produce something around 2450 fps given the velocities that Seafire provided for the 165 and 150 grain balls. We then might try bumping it up a to 25 grains a half grain at a time. That should be just about perfect for a light deer/antelope load for him. Guess I might have to invest in a chronograph if I am really going to get serious about this.

I'll let you guys know how things go!

Hey Guys:

Well my son and I went to the range today to try the 23 grain Blue Dot loads. I can only say that he had a huge grin on his face after firing off the first round. Substantially less sound and muzzle blast than with the H4895. The groups were a little larger, but we will work on finding the particular load that the M77 likes. My son shot 20 rounds and has not commented once about his shoulder hurting.

We will load up some more starting at 22 and working up 0.5 grain at a time to 25 and see if there is a particular load the rifle likes. Then we will work on bullet depth.

I want to thank all of you for providing your advice, and a special thanks to Bartsche and Seafire for their recommendation regarding starting with the 23 grain load.

Idle....

good luck to both you and your son!

glad to be able to contribute to the young man's hunting experiences...

try some 125 grain ballistic tips if you are set on that bullet weight...

cheers
seafire