It looks to me like the Barnes "Triple Shock" bullet is just a Barnes X-Bullet with three cannelures on the shank.

Don't get me wrong. I am sure they will be a great bullet, especially if one of those cannelures is where I like to crimp the bullet.

I cannot however see how this is going to improve the velocities or lower the pressures for the same velocities, though they might foul less, though again how significant?

The GSC bullets have bands that project beyond the bore riding shank of the bullet, and a lot of them, for example, 7 driving bands on the 265 grain GSC HV and 7 driving bands on the 270 grain FN in .375 caliber.

I think Gerard experimented with something like the Triple Shock along the way, but just didn't find significant improvement over his HP, which is like an X-Bullet.

The Triple Shock is not very much different than a standard X-Bullet, but I do like the cannelures.

It really seems like a bit of hype over cutting three cannelures on the existing X-Bullet.

Am I wrong?

They are really far from the HV and FN, though, I am sure. And we shall see if they ever offer them in the range of calibers and weights that GSC catalogs.

I put in my requests for 300 grain .375 bullets from both makers. When I get them, I will report my findings.

[ 01-07-2003, 21:51: Message edited by: DaggaRon ]

They three rings do not function as cannelures and are not meant to be crimped into. They are designed to reduce the bearing surface of the bullet, hence the claim of increased velocity.

jackfish,
But they are just three grooves cut into the shank of the bullet aren't they? If so, they are very much like cannelures. If so, they can certainly be used for crimping if the shooter so desires.

The GSC driving bands are not cannelures, they are raised bands CNC machined to close tolerances. But, if I choose, I crimp at my chosen spot between them, and use them like cannelures in big bore hunting ammo for heavy recoiling magazine rifles.

One of the things Mike reported in an early article about his North Fork bullets was that the number, shape and depth of the driving bands was critical to the accuracy of the bullets.

With that in mind, I am quite sceptical that the "one size fits all" appraoch Barnes seems to be taking is going to offer us anything.

If Barnes knew what they were doing, wouldn't they be introducing their "match x-bullet with secant ogive" in all calibers? Or, do I hear a bandwagon? JMO, Dutch.

Heres the picture that Russell posted on another thread. This shows the Triple Shock X-Bullet in a 140 grain 7mm, 7x57 cartridge:



Here is the description by Dave Scovill on pp. 8- 9 of the January 2003 issue of _Rifle Magazine_:

"... I found the standard 140-grain boat-tail with three bands, or grooves, cut on the shank, eachgroove approximately .004 inch deep and .050 inch wide. Randy Brooks, president of Barnes, and I had talked about this general concept many times over the years, but it was always rejected in lieu of overall cost. But as Randy explained when I called to ask about the "Ringtail," it seems the ballisticians had done some pressure tests between bullets with and without crimping grooves, as in .30 WCF or .45-70 bullets that are fired in lever-action/tubular magazine rifles and carbines. The grooved bullets always produced less pressure with any given load, and three grooves reduced pressures even more, while still maintaining velocity. The best part, acording to Randy, was less fouling and improved accuracy."

But how much better could be done with a true GSC type design?

There you have it: The Triple Shock X-Bullet is an X-Bullet with three "cannelures."

The GSC bands are about 1 mm wide with about 2 mm spacing between them. This would seem to reduce bearing surface by more than 2/3, or more than 67%, much more, because the portions of the bullet fore and aft of the bands are bore riding diameter same as the diameter between the bands.

The Triple Shock X-Bullet doesn't seem to reduce bearing surface by even 33%, just by visual estimation on the photo above, probably about 25%.

Dutch has got a good comment above.

So, I guess the three cannelures make the Triple Shock X-Bullet more like the GSC HV, though not possible as significantly improved regarding:

higher velocities obtainable at same or lower pressures

less fouling

more accurate

The X-Bullet is a great bullet, so any improvement toward trying to become more HV-like is welcome.

I wonder when they will give their solids flat noses and three cannelures too?

I wonder what it's done to the BCs of the bullet, more drag I'd guess?

Brent,
Apparently the driving bands have minimal effect on BC. Just go to the GSC site

www.gscustom.co.za

and look at the "Technical Data" section under the HV bullets: some amazingly high BC's.

The Triple Shock X-Bullet grooves/cannelures would have even less effect, I am sure, as they are just a recess on the usual diameter bullet shank and only three of them.

Once you get the laminar flow past the first driving band, or the shock waves stream back or whatever, there is minimal further effect of the bands riding in the "trough" or "shadow," especially at supersonic speed.

I studied fluid mechanics at one time, but never got into aerodynamics or rocket science, so forgive my lack of proper scientific explanation.

Sum buddy who know?

Thanks for that line, Overkill. I have used it to great benefit many times.

The North Fork bullets look like they have grooves that cover 50% of the bearing surface they inhabit: the recessed groove is about as wide as the bearing surface between the grooves.

These are very narrow "cannelures" in effect, and very numerous in count on each bullet.

There is a bearing surface on the ungrooved portion of the shank, both fore and aft of the grooved portion.

So, the total bearing surface reduction on North Fork bullets is well less than 50%.

Just a crude guess as to the bearing surface reduction of the three types of "ringed" bullets:

Triple Shock X-Bullet: 35%
North Fork: 45%
GSC HV, FN: 75%

The GSC bullets are the only ones with true driving bands that stand out from a bore riding shank.

The other two (Barnes and North Fork) have grooves machined into the otherwise normal-for-caliber shank.

The North Fork bonded lead core in the nose portion, and solid monometal shank is sweet, similar to the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw.

Thanks for the explanation and the link too.

Your much closer to piloting the space shuttle than I.

Hi,

I have been reading the various comments concerning Barnes products.
I have hunted many different species - from various places across the world.
I have taken a lot of game with my 338 using either a 185 grain XLC or the 225 gr. X.
I have also used 22, 6mm, 270, 7mm, 30, 375 and 500 Nitro calibers to hunt - turkey, bison, elk, mule deer, whitetail, Cape Buffalo, leopard, elephant, waterbuck, impala, klipspringer, kudu, wharthog, baboon, hyena, bighorn sheep, and so on and so on.
I have never yet had a bullet fail me - and vary rarely have I had to shoot twice. On a trip to Africa in 1992 I took 62 head of game with 61 one shot kills. Needless to say - my professional hunter was more than impressed. I don't like to chase animals nor do I like to see them suffer.
To the gentleman making the comment of the X-Bullet is a gimmick - trust me we have no time for gimmicks nor the finances it takes to do gimmicks. When a product is designed and brought out to the public - you can bet it is a working viable product and one that we are very proud to offer.
Sure - there are incidences when a product may or may not perform to a person's satisfaction and we do take it personal when a problem arises.
There are so many variables when it comes to hunting and we apologize that we aren't perfect but we are darn sure trying to achieve that status.
The Triple Shock X-Bullet is a welcome addition to our line. We are excited to start shipping it to our customers and - no this is no gimmick either.
Thanks for talking about us guys!!! Good or Bad

Coni Brooks - Barnes Bullets

Welcome, Coni...Its good to get comments/input from owners/manufactures on these threads. As you could imagine your products are discussed in other forums on this fine site. You may wish to check out the Big Game forum and cut a paste your response here into the thread over there on the topic of your new products. Good Luck, I hope they are a good seller for you guys...My neighbor and I had great luck with the .308 130grn XLCs and 140grn.XBTs out of our 300WSMs on VA deer this year.

Hi Conni,

It's good to see that you use a .338 too! Any idea's as to when some .338 versions of triple shock will be out?

Turok

"Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery"

Unfortunately, It appears that a large bullet maker is riding on the shoulders of a smaller manufacturer's innovation. Of course they don't want to copy the driving bands exactly as that may be a patent infringement - just the concept.

Maybe next year for the 338 Triple Shock X. That is my overall favorite cartridge. I have a lightweight custom rifle made by us in 1992 especially for my African trip. It weighs - 6-1/2 pds with the scope. It has a muzzle brake that we installed that cuts the recoil down to shoot like a 270.
It really is my buddy.
We will be offering the Triple-Shock in
6mm-95 gr. flat base
25 - 100 gr. boattail
25 - 115 gr. flat base
270- 130 gr. boattail
270- 140 gr. boattail
7mm- 140 gr. boattail
7mm- 160 gr. flat base
30 150 gr. boattail
30 168 gr. boattail (match grade)
30 180 gr. boattail
Hope this helps you.
Our goal is to start shipping in mid-March - early April.

Coni

Coni,

Any chance you might offer something for we select (admitted oddball) few who need a .312 diameter bullet?

Maybe in 150 grain?

Maybe?

Tim

Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!

Welcome to the forum Coni, watch out guys, the girl numbers are increasing!

TimB99
There is a 140 gr HV available that will do 3150fps in a 303 Epps. In 303BR, expect around 2900 with full broadside penetration on eland sized animals at 100 to 250 paces.

Mrs. Coni Brooks,
To whom do you refer as calling any of your bullets a gimmick?

I don't believe anyone above did.

We are all cognizant of the fact that GSC started off copying your bullets, essentially, with their HP being very similar to your X-Bullet. They then took it to a new design with their HV and FN.

I shot all my plains game with your 300 grain Barnes X-Bullet in 375 H&H and use many others too, in just about 40 different chamberings.

DaggaRon

A Frank Nowakowski mentioned that our bullets were a barrel fouling - gimmick. I'm so sorry that he feels that way.

I shoot X bullets in 375 H&H, 450 Ackley, 300 Win Mag, 300 Weatherby, 7-08 and 243 and never have had the fouling problems I hear about. Then I have never shot more than 20 rounds without cleaning the barrel; to me cleaning any less does not make sense.

Mike

I really have a lot of respect that the "Top Boss"
of Barnes
would get on a forum like this. A very vulnerable place to be. Connie puts it on the line. Connie
I don't shoot Barnes bullets yet. But if you were to come out
with some these new bullets in a 264 & 338, I'll promise to buy some.

Coni:

I first want to apologize in advance for all the butchery of your first name. By now (you mention "grandkids" in your profile, so I'm sure you've been on the planet for a while) I'm sure you're used to it. Constantly, the illiterate and careless of the world butcher mine as "Russel" or "Rusell" or some really lame-ass, carelessly-written rendition along those lines. So, "Coni"... welcome aboard. You've sure got guts showing your face on a website like this. I like gutsy gals, though. Hang in there.

Anyway, like I said, "Coni," I don't care who copied who and who patented what before whom. Look, all I care about is, in this case, if a given bullet will shoot well from my rifles. I don't care either way about how much or how little your bullets do or don't foul the bores of my rifles. I do something that I realize is a bit out of style these days, but I CLEAN MY GUNS AT THE RANGE AFTER FIRING A GIVEN NUMBER OF ROUNDS!!! Now... if I was in combat, facing the Chinese Red Horde, I wouldn't care if my bore fouled and if I was using your bullets or anyone else's -- I wouldn't be concerned about cleaning, precision fire, or ballistic coefficients... I'd be primarily concerned with putting lead (or copper, as the case may be) in the air.

So... don't you worry about "fouling" comments. Just keep making your bullets.

Now then, "Coni," a small, itsy-bitsy gripe.

WHY ARE YOU CATERING TO THE MOUSEGUN CROWD?! What's with the "small" bullets? Goodness gracious, how about some Triple Shocks in bigger calibers in some heavier weights for those of us who aren't obsessed with hunting mice?! I mean, Lord howdy, woman, some of us like the heavy stuff (guns, not women), and we're willing to spend accordingly if the price is fair.

So, could you purty puh-LEEEEEEEEEEASE use a 2x4 on the appropriate party and get something BIGGER made in these Triple Shocks???

"Thanks."

And again... welcome aboard, "Coni."

Take care, and don't be a stranger.

Russ

Ok.... I'll be the first.... who says Coni is a woman? Coni could very well be a man... let's not jump to any conclusions.
ok.. all the irrelevant stuff aside.. I'm pretty interested in the "grooved" x bullets... I'm also a .35 Whelen shooter..... are there any 225-250gr grooved x's anywhere in the near future? Oh, and, welcome to the board... it's really good to hear from the "horse's mouth" occasionally.... lord knows we hear from the other end of the horse WAY more than necessary around here ....

Rusel, I can do my own apologizing, thankyou.

I don't think I need to apologize to Connie, because I don't think her ego is that big nor does
she come across as being insecure about the spelling of her name.

Like some here.

Welcome to the forum, Coni! Gutsy move, kudo's.

Be prepared for some continued scepticism on my part. I am still trying to recover confidence lost in the #3 manual disaster.

Now, while you are listening, what's with the discontinuing of the light-for-caliber bullets like the 6mm 75 gr. X bullet? I had finally accepted that lightweight bullets are one of the primary advantages of shooting monolithics? What's the point if you have the shoot the same weight as a cup bullet? FWIW, Dutch.

Coni,

Welcome aboard. You'll enjoy all of the banter that goes on here.

I do have some questions concerning your bullets:

1. I have had accuracy problems in all of my rifles getting the Barnes X bullets to shoot accuratley. Calibers currently are 7 STW, 338-284, 338 Win Mag, 330 Dakota, 338 Lapua, 350 Rem Mag. I am using the data in an earlier edition of the the Barnes manual and just can't seem to find that magic load. I use bullets from other manufacturers and have very little trouble. The question is...do you bullets need more freebore (as I seat close to the lands), do they normally require a faster or slower than normal powder...example, do they shoot better with a compressed load? I know it's immpossible to tell me what will shoot well in my rifles, but I would very much like to use the Barnes bullets, but I just don't have the confidence due to the accuracy problems I have had.

Question 2:

You don't have to answer if you don't want...

But it seems the Barnes Triple Shock bullets are a copy of Gerad Schultz driving bands. Though Mr Schultz is in Africa and having problems with shipping his bullets to the US, is Barnes taking advantage of this by delevoping a "substitute" after hearing the complaints of shooters on the inability to acquire his bullets and accomidating this market? Part 2 of this question, is when the paperwork goes through for Mr. Schultz importer how will Barnes compete with the GSC bullets?

Again, thanks for joining the board. Don't take my questions as being negative or trying to downgrade your fine company, but just curious for information.

Great to have you.

Jim

Unless my memory fails me (which happens sometimes, CRAFT disease you know), the X bullets should be seated .050" off the lands, according to the Barnes manuals. I use Barnes X bullets and originals in whatever of my guns that will shoot them well. Some won't, but that's what makes it interesting finding that elusive "perfect load". Thanks for posting Coni (oh, and there are pictures of her in the manuals, sure looks like a lady). - Dan

Coni,

I too welcome you to the forum. I for one am glad to see you here, because like you, I have used the .338's & .308's from 165 gr. - 210 gr. and have yet seen your product fail. As matter of fact, your product literally saved my life in the fall of 1999. I wrote the thread, "When Preditors Attack". To sum up, my hunting parter and I were hunting some 40 mi. north west of Chicken, Alaska. When a adventitious interior black bear charged us from the back of us. By the time I was able to turn around towards the sound of the thumping tundra, the blackie was at a full charge with his ears pinned back and tundra flying from his paws. Needless to say, I had little time to respond, and distance was too close. My final response to this charging black bear was a single shot, head-on from my .338 Win Mag with a 185 gr XLC Barnes bullet. End result, one dead black bear that did a back flip from the bullet impact. From what my partner and I could count off, I made the shot about 25 yards, and with the forward momentum of the bear running at us, the bear was literally 20 feet from us. The bullet caught the right front of the chest, taking out a lung and shoudler. Your bullet does work, I'm living proof. I would bet my life on it again. Thank you, Coni!

Sincerely

[ 01-09-2003, 22:13: Message edited by: CK ]

I have to admit - I've never got on a chat forum before and I'm afraid I'm going to have to quit my comments for a while simply because the show season is starting and I am going to be in the office a total of 6 days out of the next 45 days.
Shot Show, Safari Convention, Distributor and Dealer Shows are the thing to do this time of year.
It is fun reading your comments and thanks for making me feel welcome.
Yes I am a woman with 6 grandchildren and no - Randy is not a fag.
For all of your technical questions, I ask that you please give us a call - I simply just don't have the time to respond - and I apologize.
The reason for not having the Triple Shock X in bigger calibers is simply the smaller calibers is where the numbers are but we will certainly add some next year and I'm for sure going to push for the 338's. So don't lose hope.
No we will not be discontinuing any coated bullets.
Check our web site out for more information - it is pretty informative. We will have the information on the website about the Triple Shock X in the next few weeks.
Thanks again and I'll certainly respond whenever possible.

Coni Brooks

One night my brother and I were having a beer and we glanced at the TV and somehow "Allstar Wrestling" was on. We laughed at ourselves for our channel selection. Later after a couple of more beers we said WHAT IF...........

aliens landed on earth and peered through a house window and saw our race watching allstar wrestling. What would they think of us.

Somehow, Now that Coni, has been on our chatroom I can't help but think she has the same feeling!!!! Just my humor!

Coni,

"Yes I am a woman with 6 grandchildren and no - Randy is not a fag."

You'll be OK here, you have a very good sense-of-humor.

Well, my .338 RUM will be happy, but my .375 H&H Magnum is going to be very depressed. I'm not sure how to break the news.

Welcome Coni!

Just as a point of reference, having rings(aka gooves) on a bullet is not a "new" design. Anyone suggesting Barnes Bullets is "stealing a big new design" simply hasn't studied the v-a-s-t history of bullet design.

Putting grooves into a jacket can be difficult to make shoot accuately if the depth of the groove is not properly controlled. And I wish eveyone making them the best of luck in controlling this parameter.

By the way, anyone "old enough" to remember "Wasp Waist" bullets? Or do you all think "I stole" that idea???

[ 01-10-2003, 03:21: Message edited by: Hot Core ]