Well, it looks like a lot of you chose correctly. To my plesant surprise, the groups shot were made with 154Grn Hornady Round Nose. There is no way I was expecting the Round Nose bullets to shoot as well as the others on the list that I had tried. I'm definitely planning to use the 154Gr Hdy RN as my primary hunting bullet this season.

Here is a pic of the first two targets. I won't bore you with posting all the rest of them.

Dark lines are 1/2", lighter lines are 1/4"


For those of you that chose correctly, what gave it away. The fact that the RN was the only oddball low BC bullet on the list? Or was it your uncanny sleuthing ability combined with your intimate, extensive and comprehensive knowledge of bullet types, ballistic coefficients, gun makes, barrel lengths, twist rates and ballistics in general that led you to your conclusion?

For those of you that picked one of ther other bulles listed, why did you pick that particular bullet?

firstshot
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Make your first shot count!

Not a guess at all
I just tried the following in a 7-08 about a month ago.

140 Nosler AB
140 Noslet PT
140 Nosler BT
145 Speer Boat Tail
139 Hornady SST
139 Hornady Spire Point
154 Hornady RN

I too was surprized at the 154 RN accuracy
Nosler 140 AB and 140 BT ran a very close second.
139 Hornady SP and Nosler 140 PT were close as a third place.

139 SST and 145 Speer did not do well in this gun.

i chose it because it shoots extremely well from my 7mm mauser and my rifles next favorite is the 139 hornady sp.

First Shot--excellent set up!! I own about 25 guns and some of the best groups have come from hornady bullets. In the 7mm there is just something about the 154 interlock and (evidently) it's round nosed brother. A while back one of the shooting magazines did an article showing some long range drop of (I believe) 30 cal sierras. I think the groups were shot at about 300 yds and amazingly the roundnose did NOT land too far below the matchkings. The only thing I could figure was that it was so accurate it was flying in a very perfect spiral making the best ballistics it possbily could and the match king was wobbling somewhat and that wore off the better coefficient. Anyhow, in my book you sure don't need those pretty plastic tipped bullets with their irratic expansion traits to impress accuracy potential in alot of guns.

Here is another thing that surprised me about the Round Nose bullets. I compared the trajectories of the 154Grn Hdy RN vs 150Grn Nosler Ballistic tip. Both out of a 7MM-08 @ 2,750 FPS with a 100 Yd zero.

The RN is within 1/2" Of the BT trajectory out to 190 Yds. Its within 1 1/2" out to 250 Yds, 2" out to 270 Yds and just 3" lower at 300 Yds.



To me the trajectory differences are neglegible. To top that off, I use a Burris 3-9X40 w/ Ballistic Plex reticle, so by sighting in 3/4" high at 100Yds and using the 200 & 300 Yd aim points, I'm within an inch of line of sight all the way out to 300Yds.

Now if they will just perform on game....I'm good to go!!

firstshot
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Make your first shot count

Hey First Shot, Is that RN Hornady a "2-diameter" style?

Great chart.

Hello the camp fire:
What I found interesting was that the lowest powder charge gave the best groups. I just goes to show tha tyou don't have to move into warp drive to have a good hunting or target round.
I have found much the same thing with my .280 Remington. It however likes the 139 grain Hornadays best with the 154 Just behind it. both will give clover leaf groups if I do my part.
Do you think that the powder you used was better for that bullet, and that a differant powder would cause a differant bullet weight to group the best?
Judge Sharpe

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Hey First Shot, Is that RN Hornady a "2-diameter" style?

Great chart.

HotCore

I'm afraid I don't know what "2-diameter" style means. I checked the Hornady site and did not see and reference to it.

firstshot
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Make your first shot count!

quote:

Originally posted by JudgeSharpe:
Hello the camp fire:
What I found interesting was that the lowest powder charge gave the best groups. I just goes to show tha tyou don't have to move into warp drive to have a good hunting or target round.
I have found much the same thing with my .280 Remington. It however likes the 139 grain Hornadays best with the 154 Just behind it. both will give clover leaf groups if I do my part.
Do you think that the powder you used was better for that bullet, and that a differant powder would cause a differant bullet weight to group the best?
Judge Sharpe

JudgeSharpe

Yep, the two lowest charges did produce the smallest groups, but the 47.5Grn group also came in at .58" and all of the groups are sub MOA which is more than good enough for hunting.

I've only tried two powders with the 154RN's, H414 and IMR 4064. IMR produced an overall average of .912" I haven't tried H414 with other bullets yet, but definitely plan to.

The other bullets I've tried, 140 Game kings, 140 and 150 Ballistic Tips and 140 Accubonds seem to prefer Varget.

firstshot
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Make your first shot count!

quote:

Originally posted by First Shot:
HotCore

I'm afraid I don't know what "2-diameter" style means. I checked the Hornady site and did not see and reference to it...

Hey First Shot, Didn't mean for you to go on a scavanger hunt.

I'm guessing your RN Hornady has a cannelure around it as most of their RN designs do. One of the ancient old design tricks to improve accuracy and lower pressure was to use a 2-diameter design. It is basically Bore Diameter ahead of the cannelure and Groove diameter aft.

The concept being the smaller Bore Diameter portion will ride atop the Lands as it enters the barrel and helps "center" the bullet. That reduced portion also produces less drag by reducing the "contact patch" with the Lands and Grooves, which helps reduce pressure.

The aft portion is full Groove diameter to seal the gas off from blow-by and is long enough to hold the pressure as the bullet accelerates.
---

You should be able to stick the bullet in a set of 0.0001" capable Micrometers and tell easy enough. In fact, even a 0.001" Caliper should work.
---

This is just one reason why it is always best to re-develop a Load from below when you change bullets. A load developed at a SAFE MAX using a 2-diameter design would be a good bit higher in pressure with other bullets.

O.K. I admit it...I voted for the ballistic tip.
Why? Over the years I've found that if a rifle couldn't shoot the ballistic tip reasonably well, it probably wouldn't shoot anything well. The exception: 7X57 mauser. Those long throats just needed a round nose bullet I guess. Why the 6.5 will, and the 7 won't, I don't know.

Hot Core

Well, I broke out the caliper. At every measure point between the base and the cannelure, it measures exactly .284". Not even a 1/16" on nose side of the cannelure it measures .282", at 1/4" from the cannelure it measures .275", at 1/2" it measures .248" and continues to taper down to .184" where the jacket meets the exposed lead tip.

So, it maintains .284 from the base all the way to the channelure and starts tapering "immediately" on the other side of the channeluer and continues the taper all the way to the lead tip. Does that sound like your "2-diameter" design?

So this design would create less pressure because you've got less bullet surface area at groove diameter. Makes sense to me. But what does that mean to velocity?

firstshot
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Make your first shot count!

Hey First Shot, Just noticed a "typo" in the dark title of the Trajectory Chart. I know you meant 2,750fps because you also mentioned it above there.

quote:

Originally posted by First Shot:
Hot Core

Well, I broke out the caliper. At every measure point between the base and the cannelure, it measures exactly .284".

Just what we want it.

quote:

Not even a 1/16" on nose side of the cannelure it measures .282",

Now here I would have expected about 0.278"-0.280" immediately next to the cannelure. Not critical of the dimensions you got at all though. It may have been this way from the original design, or they may have altered it slightly from long ago. But you can see what I was talking about.

quote:

at 1/4" from the cannelure it measures .275", at 1/2" it measures .248" and continues to taper down to .184" where the jacket meets the exposed lead tip.

So, it maintains .284 from the base all the way to the channelure and starts tapering "immediately" on the other side of the channeluer and continues the taper all the way to the lead tip. Does that sound like your "2-diameter" design?

Yes, it is a 2-diameter design.

quote:

So this design would create less pressure because you've got less bullet surface area at groove diameter. Makes sense to me. But what does that mean to velocity?...

There is a lot of confusion amongst reloaders in general about the relationship of Pressure and Velocity. As you read the discussions, even though they appear to be saying different things, depending on the "exact specifics" of the situation, they could all be right. (Not trying to confuse you, just saying there are a lot of "opinions" about this.)

I'll see if I can make some comments that "most" people who have reloaded for a number of years would agree with. First off, never believe that Velocity = Pressure. It NEVER works that way and is completely mis-leading. The person that made that original comment should have been shot. But, it is true that Velocity is a "function" created by the integral of the "area under the Pressure Curve" during firing.

Here are the options:

1. A developed load with a SAFE MAX Peak Pressure along with a specific amount of "area under the Pressure Curve" during firing creates a Velocity which is unique to that specific firearm and cartridge(case, primer, powder, bullet).

2. Less Peak Pressure and less area under the curve "than in #1" will always create less Velocity in relation to #1.
3. Less Peak Pressure and more area under the curve "than in #1" will normally create more Velocity in relation to #1.
4. More Peak Pressure and less area under the curve "than in #1" will normally create less Velocity in relation to #1.
5. More Peak Pressure and more area under the curve "than in #1" will always create more Velocity in relation to #1.

I would be guessing to say what will happen in your particular situation. First off, since your 154gr RN is heavier than the others a person would normally think that will "increase" Pressure with a specific Load. But since it is a 2-diameter design, there is an excellent chance it will actually "lower" the Pressure. And that would typically reduce the area under the Pressure curve as well. So you would probably be like in example #2.

But, always go by what all the Pressure Indicators are telling you and don't rely on guessing.
---

I've used a good number of Hornady RNs over the years with absolutely excellent results concerning both accuracy and on-game performance. With the ones I've used, I've normally found that I can SAFELY use slightly more Powder and achieve a greater Velocity while remaining within a SAFE MAX Load, than I can with a 1-diameter bullet of similar weight.

Now, once that is understood, when you look at the Trajectory Chart, if you work up to a SAFE MAX with each of those bullets, you can "normally" get a slightly higher Velocity with your 2-diameter Hornady. Then the actual Trajectories become even closer. Pretty nifty that the "ancient old design" typically allows a slightly higher Velocity than some of the computer designed Super Sleek bullets of today.

I really don't understand "why" Hornady does not use a 2-diameter design on ALL their bullets that have a cannelure.
---

And it is not just unique to Hornady Bullets. It just depends on the "design". It does not always have to be 2-diameter to create a similar end result situation.

Another example (I was just looking at in my notes) is the 140gr Nosler Partition when loaded to a SAFE MAX and compared to a 140gr Nosler B-Tip also loaded to it's SAFE MAX in my 7mmRemMag. The Partition goes faster and thus wipes out the supposed Trajectory "advantage" of the B-Tip. And in my rifle, the Partition is actually more accurate - for this Lot of bullets.

Best of luck to you First Shot. If you decide to use the 154gr Hornady RN on Deer this year and keep it in the forward 1/3, you will be very pleased with the results.

Speaking of decreased velocity=better/tighter groups try some of Seafires bluedot recipes for your 7mm/O8. You will not find any combination of bullet, powder, primer that will outgroup a reduced loading with bluedot powder---period. These loads are fantastic for 100 yard paper punching. You are able to sit down a shoot 60-100 at a time with little worry about barrel wear, because you don't have the extreme pressure, temperature, or dirty residue. And there is virtually no recoil. The kids love to shoot these loads also.

Hot Core

When working your 7mm-08 load up to 7,750 FPS you have to work up your load very slowly, but if you can get there, the 154 RN would have about 17,000 Ft Lbs of energy at 100 Yds and if sighted in dead on at 100 Yds would have a point blank range (+-3") of 540 Yds.....Like they say.."Who needs a Magnum".....JUST KIDDING ....Yep, supposed to be 2,700. Thanks for catching the "fat-finger" typo on the chart....I fixed the chart.

At 48Grn H414 I'm at the Hornady manual max, averaging 2,760 FPS and getting absolutely no pressure signs. I know it isn't needed and probaly not worth the effort, but I may increase the charge slowly, say at .25 Grn increments to see where the SAFE MAX is with this bullet. If accuracy stays under MOA at 100 & 200 Yds, I'll use that as my hunting load.

I'm primarilly hunting Whitetail and definitely planning to use the 154RN as my hunting load this year. I'm thinking I'll get excellent expansion and the .273 sectional density should give me good penetration.

Where I hunt, in the mountians of NW Arkansas, there is always the chance to come across a black bear of a big hog. How do you think the 154 Hdy RN will hold up on these critters?

Thanks for all the info you've provided. I really appreciate it.

firstshot
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Make your first shot count!

quote:

Originally posted by buckshot:
O.K. I admit it...I voted for the ballistic tip.
Why? Over the years I've found that if a rifle couldn't shoot the ballistic tip reasonably well, it probably wouldn't shoot anything well. The exception: 7X57 mauser. Those long throats just needed a round nose bullet I guess. Why the 6.5 will, and the 7 won't, I don't know.

buckshot

My rifle doesn't shoot the BT's as well as it does the Accubonds, and shoots the Game Kings about on par with the Accubonds. I don't have as much experience with the Accubonds as I do with the Game Kings, so if I had been voting (and haden't actually shot the the 154 Hdy RN's), my vote would definitely have gone with the Game Kings.

firstshot
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Make your first shot count!

quote:

Originally posted by one-holer:
Speaking of decreased velocity=better/tighter groups try some of Seafires bluedot recipes for your 7mm/O8. You will not find any combination of bullet, powder, primer that will outgroup a reduced loading with bluedot powder---period. These loads are fantastic for 100 yard paper punching. You are able to sit down a shoot 60-100 at a time with little worry about barrel wear, because you don't have the extreme pressure, temperature, or dirty residue. And there is virtually no recoil. The kids love to shoot these loads also.

one-holer

Just what kind of velocities are you getting with the bluedot loads? What bullet, barrel length, etc?

I'll do a search for Seafires bluedot recipes.

firstshot
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Make your first shot count!

Hey First Shot, You are welcome. I just whammed in a response and somehow managed to lose it by bumping the the Touch Pad. I'll do it again and paste it in for you in the morning.

Hey First Shot, I’ll try this again and hopefully won’t loose it.

First off, I do not want to mislead you about the 7mm 154gr RN Hornady, because I don’t believe I’ve ever used it, or have seen it used on Bears or Hogs. I have used a good number of them on Deer at the Velocities you are talking about and was very happy with the results. I do believe I always got Exits on the Deer, but that could be wrong.

I’ve really been straining the old gray matter about it and I believe the RNs I used(and have seen used) on Bears and Hogs were all either 30cal or 35cal. Some from Hornady, Speer and Sierra. Possibly some Factory RNs, but I’m not sure.

I’d intended to caution you about getting the Velocity “too high†for that 7mm 154gr RN Hornady, but happened to look in the really old Hornady Volume #3 to see what it had to say. Apparently that specific bullet was at one time made “tougher†than their 30cal and 35cal RNs because it says their optimum performance lies between 2300-3200fps. And they are intended for use on Medium / Medium Heavy Game. Neither the 30cal or 35cal RNs were recommended at that high of a Velocity.

That info is from a 1980 Manual, so it might be a good idea to contact Hornady and see if it is still valid today. Occasionally a design is changed to enhance a different parameter and if they “softened†the design, then Medium Heavy Game might no longer be valid.

If it is valid, I’d “guess†you could use it on the Bears and Hogs without giving it a second thought. Otherwise, I would recommend you use either a 7mm 140gr or 150gr Nosler Partition, either of which I know works great on Bears and Hogs at the Velocities you can achieve in your 7mm-08.

Probably a lot of other 7mm bullets that would do well for you to and you might want to consider beginning a separate thread to get other peoples experiences in addition to mine.

The H414 you are using is what I use in my 7mm-08 too. Sure is a fine powder for many weights of bullets in it.

Those RNs sure do look good in a cartridge and I’ve always enjoyed using RNs, but try lots of different brands and styles just to see how well the Designers did.

Good hunting and clean 1-shot kills.

Not only is that bullet accurate, but it does a perfect job on deer when pushed 2600-2750 fps.
A devasating wound channel with an exit hole, even through both shoulders.
Woody

Thanks to all for participating!

I'll wrap this thread up by saying that I went to the range today and worked this load on up from a book max of 48Gr to to 49.5Grn in .25Grn increments. All the groups maintained sub MOA with the last 49.5Grn group coming in at .775" CTC @ 100Yds with an average velocity of 2,845.

In my gun, there were absolutely no pressure sights at this charge weight. I do not recommend that anyone attempt to duplicate this load. If you do decide to attempt to duplicate this load, you are on your on and needless to say, you should start much much lower and work your way up slowely, watching for pressure signs.

As far as I'm concerned.......I've got my hunting load!!

Hot Core

I'll get in contact with Hornady about the 154 RN, especially since I'm pushing that baby at 2,845.

By the way, I am trying different bullets including all the ones in the original poll plus a couple of others. I'll definitely be using the RN this year though.

Woody

Thanks for the performance report!!! I definitely like two holes and good to know that the 154RN can take out both shoulders.


Thanks again to everyone!

firstshot
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Make your first shot count!

RN bullets are commonly very accurate in my experience, not only due to the sometimes 2-diameter thing, but because they have a longer bearing surface for most designs. Both aspects tend to force concentricity upon the bullet as it enters the bore. VLD style bullets can sometimes be a bugger to get into itty bitty groups for the opposite reasons.

I know a fella that has a Shilen DGA-M in .338 Win. that is accurate on any day, but quite amazing with the Barnes Originals in 300 grains, a round nose design. I don't recall them as a 2-D design, but they sure are looooonnnnng. Bug hole city when he shoots them.

I know a man who shoots only round nose in his .280. He tried all kinds and found that factory round nose shot the best in his rifle. He wasted a lot of money thinking the bullet with the best CI would shoot best. Nails several deer a year and has for 15 years. What ever works man!