Will soon take delivery of my new tactical rifle in 6.5x47 Lapua. Surgeon 591 SA, Kreiger MTU 1:8.5 SS barrel, Accuracy International Chassis System stock, NightForce NXS 5.5-22x50 scope and Shilen trigger.

I've never gone the bushing die route. Have always used either FL or Lee Neck Collet dies in conjunction with Redding body dies.

Am thinking about either Redding Type S bushing, Forster Neck Bump bushing or Forster custom honed FL dies.

I have been reading recently that the dreaded doughnut is not an "if" but a "when" issue. So, wanted to find out if the doughnut is a "when" issue and which set of dies will best handle the situation with the 6.5x47 Lapua cartridge.

Thanks and have a nice day.

Alan

Interesting question. Do you have to seat past (or into) the 'dough-nut' region?

I have a wildcat case and intend to build a rifle on it. The problem is that it is a 303 Brit case straightened out to shoulder/case dimentions and this leaves the case thickness change problem. A special die is used which irons the 'dough-nut' away. It's a draw plug die that is withdrawn with the case in the die. No reason why the same cannot be done for any other case design.

303guy

what you are describing is the basic idea of the Lee collet die.

Unless there is something special about that particular caliber, I do not believe that a do-nut is a sure thing to develop. For example I have a 280AI that will develop a do-nut if I am using the 280AI Nosler brass but does not develop do-nuts when fire forming from regular 280 Rem Nosler brass.

I now have 3 tight necked custom chambers and that 280AI is the only one that ever develops a do-nut. No other rifle that I reload for does either and I check all cases with pin gauges



The pin gauges have shown me a lot about different sizing methods and the effect on the interior dimensions of the necks. For instance there is one caliber I reload for, 338RUM, where the Lee Collet is not availbable. The rifle has a tight throat and I have to turn the necks in order for the case to chamber. For that gun I have a Redding bushing neck sizer. Even when I am as careful as I can be when turning, there is some variation in the neck thickness, usually .0005" to either side of my target thickness. That means the neck thickness can vary by as much as .001". With the bushing dies that neck thickness variation is pushed to the inside of the neck. I know, I have used the pin gauges to gauge it. This will have an effect on your bullet grip and release.

By contrast, all the cases sized with a Lee Collet are always exactly the same dimension on the inside of the neck. So much so that I have stopped checking after a couple of hundred. Still check to see actual size and look for do-nuts but then know that the interior neck dimension is the same throughout.

If you are going to have a tight neck in your custom chamber then you will have to calibrate your neck thickness and outside neck turn to get the appropriate chamber clearance around the neck. It will depend upon which turner you are using as to how to get rid of the do-nut should one develop. I use the Forster which has a reamer that is .003" over caliber so set the cases up to have that interior dimension after firing. The K & M has a reaming outside neck turning mandrel but they are expensive and do not work as well as the Forster IMO. However, reaming is the only way I know to get rid of a do-nut if it develops.

Do you have a diagram of the case?

Do you know what the gunsmith is going to ream the neck at?

The Dreaded Donut can occur any time brass is moved to any degree. It can be removed by reaming the inside or cutting the outside with the help of special tooling in both instances.

If you don't have the right tooling and use the right procedure, then the donut will remain to some degree.

If your neck wall thickness is not too great, use of the Lee collet die will bypass the donut problem in most rifles. I like the collet die used together with a Sinclair-type hand-held outside neck turner with sharp-cornered cutter, but have also had good luck with the Forster case trimmer when used properly.
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:
Interesting question. Do you have to seat past (or into) the 'dough-nut' region?

I believe the deepest I will ever have to seat the 139,140,142 gr class bullets is so the bottom edge of the bearing surface will be at the neck/shoulder junction. This, I'm sure, is where I might run into doughnuts, if they form. The next two lower weight class of bullets is the 130 Berger and the 120/123 gr class bullets and I do not believe a doughnut will come into concern at this weight.

Alan

quote:

Originally posted by woods:

Do you have a diagram of the case?

Do you know what the gunsmith is going to ream the neck at?

Woods,

I don't know what reamer, Chris Matthews of Long Shot Rifles, Garden City, MO used but he did tell me the reamer has a 0.294" neck dia.

Here is the only diagram I could find.

http://www.accurateshooter.com...topic,1056446.0.html

I figure outside dia of a loaded round to be about .288" to .290". (.264 bullet dia + either .012" to .0135" x 2 neck thickness)

Have quered Lee about custom Neck Collet die and they quote $55. I'll probably have a couple extra custom sized decap mandrels made up at something like $7.50 each, so I can vary my bullet tension.

Alan

Sounds like a good plan on the Lee Collets.

You might have to outside neck turn to get the brass neck thickness down. Do you have a neck turner?

Woods,

Yes, I've had a Forster for about two decades. Still works great.

Alan

"Donuts" come from necking cases up when part of the old shoulder moves into the new neck. The dies used really don't matter.

Jim has made an excellent point. A great many handloaders turn necks without knowing why or how to do it right.

There are several ways to avoid doughnuts:

**Don't turn the necks unless you REALLY need to and then do it correctly.
**Ream the necks instead of turning. if you REALLY need to and do it correctly.
**If you must turn a neck don't leave a little band of unturned neck just before the shoulder.
**Don't leave the bushing loose in the bushing die, as this will form the DD when you eventually have to FL size again. Yes I know what Redding says, I have some of their bushing dies.

Ahh....the Dreaded Doughnut. The Dreaded Doughnut occurs when you neck turn but DO NOT cut deep enough into the shoulder/neck junction.

Are you neck turning?

woods: Where did you get the pin gauges?

quote:

Originally posted by IanD:
woods: Where did you get the pin gauges?

At CDCO Tools, click on measuring tools, the pin gauges and the set I got is the 3rd one down on the right ($55.00)

quote:

6.5x47 Lapua

If you buy new factory brass buy brass here i dont see a donut forming. The bushing does not size all the way to the shoulder, this is not a donut. Neck wall thickness has to be larger to have a real donut. If you neck up or down, you may get a donut. IMO. Lapua cases

quote:

Originally posted by woods:

At CDCO Tools, click on measuring tools, the pin gauges and the set I got is the 3rd one down on the right ($55.00)

Many thanks! Those will come in handy.