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After experiencing my first head separation in more than 40 years of reloading, I've decided my Zastava 9.3x62 has excess headspace. I rang a gunsmith and was told fixing it would cost at least $250. At my age I'm not sure I want to spend that so decided on another approach. My answer was to buy new Norma brass, which is about .005" fatter at the head than Winchester's. This fills the chamber better, which I feel may also remove some stress at the web. Then I bought an 8mm Dynabolt (expanding fastener for brickwork, cost 76 cents) and shortened and bored out an old 375 Win case to make a ferrule between the case mouth and the nut on the end of the Dynabolt. The ferrule is about 3/4" long but the length is not critical. I insert the Dynabolt well into the case neck and snug up the nut until the ferrule stops against the case mouth. I then get pliers and tighten the nut about one and a half turns of fair resistence. In doing this, the expanding collar pulls the shoulder forward, after which the cases fit the chamber with good compression, less work I feel than necking up to .375" and then back down to c. .366. I'm lucky that the 8mm Dynabolt works with this calibre. The next one down is 6mm, so would probably only work with a .270 or 7mm, not a .30 or .338. | ||
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I suppose there are many ways to skin a cat. I just load my bullets long so that they are firmly in contact with the lands for the fire-forming. Remember to adjust your dies correctly, else it will all have been in vain. | |||
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As I do my own Mauser re-barreling, I wont have one with bad headspace. You dont sound very certain about the headspace issue. ? I suggest at least getting it checked properly with a set of gages, for posterity. AK-47 The only Communist Idea that Liberals don't like. | |||
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Or do this; ignore what the actual chamber shoulder to bolt face distance is. Make your brass fit the chamber; get or make a neck expander and neck up the brass to a large caliber; .375 might even do it. Then resize, but leave a false shoulder until the bolt will just close with a firm push. After that, do not size your brass any more than necessary. This is just classic case forming to fit the chamber technique. Cost: zero. I use a Lee expander die which uses removable plugs, so cost is like $20. I can make the plugs for you. | |||
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Thanks guys. Rich pointed out in the DIY forum that my method might lengthen the case altogether. I checked it and it did but not beyond max allowance and only .005" while I'd pushed the shoulder/neck nexus out 8 or 10 thou. I am going to get some Cerrosafe to check the chamber's neck length, thinking that if the reamer was just taken in too far, maybe I don't need to trim the cases just yet. Peter, do you have to take special precautions to save raising pressures too much with your method? My rifle has a very long throat, so the bullet would have to be well out. I guess that would make more room for powder or reduce pressures slightly with starting loads, though. I started my AR2209 (H4350) loads one grain below what the ADI/Hodgdon book suggested but found the cases were pretty well filled there and that velocities were already up to 2350fps with the 286gr bullet. I thought of your method, dpcd, but bits can be a little hard to find at the mo. I have some old, pointed .375" bullets and thought of pushing them in and then partially necksizing, but thought my way might work the brass less. | |||
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I typically load start loads when seating into the lands. If I understand you correctly, you are already seeing unexpectedly high velocities with start loads? In that case, just reduce the load a couple of grains. Oh, and the above applied to cup-and-core bullets. I would be more circumspect with hard bullets (monolithic brass/copper or solid-base bullets). | |||
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Ok, then the "jam the bullet into the rifling" method will also work, as those guys said. But is does eat up components. Use starting loads. Seat the bullet so that when you chamber the round, the bullet will be very firmly impressed into the rifling. This will hold your case back against the bolt face, and when you fire it, the shoulder will more forward. Do not resize it back. It will be cheaper to send you an expander die; those are $13.81. And I can make any expander plugs needed. | |||
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Using blank loads and lubricated cases will work well too. A light wipe of hydraulic oil, some bullseye or 700x, a square of toilet paper, and Bob's your uncle. Bill | |||
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I always cringe when I hear the oiled case idea; not because it won't work, but because with all the careless reloaders here, someone is bound to get oil in the barrel and it will instantly cause a ring or bulge. One guy here coats his ammo with pig lard or something like that too. And all this costs primers and powder and maybe bullets; probably hard to get in Australia. Just guessing. Which is why I like and use the false shoulder thing. | |||
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Load up a 9.3x62 case with about 11 grs of Hercules, stuff it with kleenex, cornmeal and wax the neck and shoot them in your rifle pointed up. neck size cases..fireforming 101.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Thanks again everyone. Once I try that Cerrosafe I will have some idea whether my method brings pesky/dangerous case lengthening in my rifle. In the event that it does, I might consider your offer, dpcd, thanks. Primers are very hard to find here now, so I'd rather not have to waste shots fire-forming the cases. I will, however, pull the bullets from my hotter test cartridges and load no higher than 63 grains when I make the next batch. I did not notice any additional pressure signs in those 'hotter' loads but I don't need more velocity and would rather the cases lasted a bit longer. Cheers | |||
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Do the FALSE SHOULDER and the JAM THE BULLET into the rifling methods----can't go wrong. The corn meal method works----but what ever method you use to fit the brass to the chamber, you will use powder and primers. Hip | |||
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Thanks Hipshoot. I've now got that Cerrosafe but not used it yet. If it shows the chamber mouth is also farther out than expected, it may be that my method can make virgin brass into cases that can be loaded with the final load first time and just be taken hunting. Since my remaining test cartridges have cases that still do not reach nominal maximum length, that's what I did this week. Unfortunately, I did not find a stag to try one on. | |||
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Here's the latest on this matter, which I've copied from the DIY-forum thread: "...I got some Cerrosafe and checked the length of the chamber's neck and it came to .315" by my measurement. That's nine thou longer than the Nosler drawing's .306", about 30 thou longer than Winchester factory-round cases and 20 thou more than Norma virgin brass. Thus, I believe the Zastava reamer was of the correct shape but had just been taken into the barrel .009" farther than 'ideal', or maybe .006" more than usual. The necks of my Norma cases after the Dynabolt treatment were actually 10 thou shorter than before, even though it stretched the overall case length by about five thou. So, the resulting .284" neck will allow a few reloads before needing to be trimmed - the neck length increased about .003" after firing, about 10% of the space available. Therefore, I'll assert that my 'invention' does save time compared with necking up and back, and will work the brass less in the process." | |||
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Undersized brass can cause this. I had the same issue with a 6.5 x 55 using Winchester brass that was 8 thou under. The case is stretching then compressed back in your die. Work hardening then leading to failure. | |||
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Thanks Bobster, I've received more correspondence on these matter in the DIY forum, if anyone is interested. | |||
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Hi sambarman338, To me (I have used it in some 7x57 undersized cases to fit my Mauser 7mm original dimentions chamber), what dpcd suggest is the best way. No cost, no fire forming et all. Load the case with that false second shoulder as if was a normal case and go shooting or hunting. I also did it converting 30-06 cases to 7x64. Obviously the 30-06 came already expanded! As the base to shoulder dimention is longer in the 7x64, the only thing to do was to pass the 30-06 in the 7x64 sizing die leaving that secondary false shoulder. I loaded that cases as if they were 7x64 original. And went hunting. Good luck! PH | |||
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Thanks PH, as I said in one of the DIY-forum posts, dpcd's method would be more precise. It would remove the possibility of over-or-under application of the bump. However, unlike your .30-06-7x64 excercise, it does need two separate processes while mine needs only one and should work the brass less. I don't feel the need to fire-form the cases before going hunting, either, but do run them through the rifle to check that they fit with the right resistance. That said, I have blown the 50-cent economy of my method by buying a butane blow-torch to anneal the cases first, thinking that might make them last longer. | |||
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absolutely, can make brass last damn near forever!!  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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What do you think is the best way to do it, Ray? Hopefully your method involves a blow torch, since I've gone and bought the damned thing (called Hot Devil). I used to see cases standing in water, getting knocked over after heating, but that seems to be less popular now. One of our members who casts his own bullets likes to dip case necks into the pot but I wonder if residue or dodgy fumes might be a problem. | |||
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For annealing I prefer to just hold the case over a propane torch, if it gets too hot to hold, its annealed. You get a "feel" for the timing.  Seriously, it works. No need to get too extravagant about it.AK-47 The only Communist Idea that Liberals don't like. | |||
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I had to fireform cases for my 9.5X57 Mannlicher Schoenauer. I found that the Norma 9.3X57 cases had more taper but exact headspace. To save components, I just used 20 gr shotgun powder and a square of toilet paper. It worked perfectly. I did the same for my 280 AI. Perfect. Using cream of wheat, plug of soap etc. was just too messy.
"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Thanks Nakihunter, I'm happy to say my method works well enough with full-house loads even before foreforming, thus saving precious primers. | |||
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Most factory ammo or first reload of new unfired brass is a fireforming load to your rifle and just fine for a hunting load in as much as there is variation from one rifle to another..pushing out a custom chamber can be a bit difficult but should not be a problem. Ive annealed with most of the mentioned methods and they all worked..The methods mentioned may be slow or fast so it depends on your time choice.. My fireforming post can be a bit messy I suppose, but it works ok outside, but the bullet jam works also but can under some instances run pressures up Ive been told. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Sambar, I use a blow torch for annealing and used the train of thought that evenly applying the heat to the neck and shoulder area of cases is probably better than applying heat to a standing still case e.g. standing in a pan of water. I made a simple wooden stand for my blowtorch and electric drill to position both 'tools' and set the cases in same spot each time to be annealed. I made up case holders for the electric drill to so I'm not handling hot cases and also to act as a heat sink to keep heat away from the body of the case. You could also use an extension socket as a case holder in the drill too. The drill rotates the case in the holder slowly and on change of colour, not dull or cherry red, the case can be tipped from the holder into a tub of water just to cool, quenching not required to anneal brass, next case put in holder away from flame and drill back into position on the wooden stand. All works real well and applies even heating and annealing to exact same area on the neck and shoulder of cases. Image below pretty well shows how it works.  | |||
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Thanks Ray and Lindsay, I will take those thoughts on board. Maybe if I find a socket head that holds the case with a little slop, I might take it up with a wet strip of cardboard. If that catches fire, I'll know I've taken the heat too far  I came on an old article about accidentally wrecking cases by Wal Winfer, in which he claims that they are usually annealed several times in manufacture. Therefore, I take it my new Normas should be soft enough for the first load, at least. Wal warned that annealing could be easily overdone, so I'll have to be careful. | |||
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Little Crow Gun Works makes something like what is posted instead of using a socket. They work very well and they even made one for me that they didn't offer on their web site at no extra charge. Forget the cost but they are well worth the money. Hip | |||
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Thanks Hipshoot, I'll keep that in mind. | |||
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