I would like to use cast bullets as they are much cheaper in my 45-70, other than increased leading, is there any reason I can't use cast bullets in jacketed loads? Here is the load I want to use it for:
Cartridge: 45-70 Government (Lever Actions)*
Load Type: Rifle
Starting Loads


Bullet Weight (Gr.) Order BW Powder Bullet Diam. C.O.L. Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure

400 GR. SPR JFP-- 400-- H4198-- .458"-- 2.540"-- 46.0-- 1854-- 29,500 CUP-- 50.5-- 2002-- 39,400 CUP

It depends on what your exact powder charge is. With exact charges & bullet weights, the lead load will produce slightly higher pressures. If you are shooting starting loads, no problem. If you are shooting max. loads, then I would back off 5%.

So go up to 48ish grains as max? Start at 45?

Oh yes, I would be using a 405 grain cast, would the 5 grains make a difference?

You still need to work up loads in your rifle, but starting @ 45gr & working up, watch for pressure signs, you should be fine.

Starting at 40 grains, going up to 47.5, we'll see if they have a bit more "oomph" than 25 grains of the same powder. With only 25 grains, and the bullet traveling less than 1200 fps, it went through 9 big coffee cans full of water. Coffee cans are 6 inches across, so almost 5 feet of water! At #9 the bullet shot up...?

I have had excellent results using ww cast Lee 405 fn's in both ballard and mircrogroove barrels. Quench hardened and lubed with Liquid Alox. No gas check.

50g varget (on Hodgdon website)

This is a trapdoor level load. The load lists the velocity at 1750 or so. No leading and quite accurate.

Normally the cast/lubed bullets run at a lower pressure/higher velocity than jacketed for the same powder charge.

quote:

Originally posted by fredj338:
It depends on what your exact powder charge is. With exact charges & bullet weights, the lead load will produce slightly higher pressures. If you are shooting starting loads, no problem. If you are shooting max. loads, then I would back off 5%.

I don't quite agree with lead bullets creating higher pressure. I haven't seen any signs of this in over 50 years of shooting cast bullets.
I do agree with starting with the starting loads and working up.
For the 45-70, my choice of powder would be IMR-3031. 4198 can get a bit squirrely as you approach maximum loads. At least this has been the case in the two 45-70 rifles I own, a Marlin 1895 New Model and a Ruger #1.
probably your bullets should be sized to .459" for best results although I prefer .460" in my guns.
Paul B.

I have to agree with Paul B based on my own experience.

I always work up, but I've never encountered a situation yet in which the cast bullet of equal mass did not yield (apparently) equal or lower pressure.

John

quote:

Originally posted by Tyler Kemp:
I would like to use cast bullets as they are much cheaper in my 45-70, other than increased leading, is there any reason I can't use cast bullets in jacketed loads? Here is the load I want to use it for:
Cartridge: 45-70 Government (Lever Actions)*
Load Type: Rifle
Starting Loads


Bullet Weight (Gr.) Order BW Powder Bullet Diam. C.O.L. Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure

400 GR. SPR JFP-- 400-- H4198-- .458"-- 2.540"-- 46.0-- 1854-- 29,500 CUP-- 50.5-- 2002-- 39,400 CUP

Hodgdon data for cowboy action lists H4198 31.0 gr 405 gr cast lead bullet at 1459fps as there MAXIMUM load. 17,100cups pressure. Get the Free reloaders manual from Win, IMR, Hodgdon, all free at the Hodgdon website. How much more pressure a lever action will take, who knows.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul B:

quote:

Originally posted by fredj338:
It depends on what your exact powder charge is. With exact charges & bullet weights, the lead load will produce slightly higher pressures. If you are shooting starting loads, no problem. If you are shooting max. loads, then I would back off 5%.

I don't quite agree with lead bullets creating higher pressure. I haven't seen any signs of this in over 50 years of shooting cast bullets.
I do agree with starting with the starting loads and working up.
Paul B.

+1

Jacketed bullets will produce higher pressures than cast bullet in equivalent weights with duplicate charges. Check out the manuals and compare max charges for same weight cast vs. jacketed bullets. FWIW, I shoot Cast Performance 405gr gas checked cast bullets over H322 at 1,800 fps in my 45-70 with no leading whatsoever.

Cheers,
Andy

quote:

Originally posted by Tyler Kemp:
I would like to use cast bullets as they are much cheaper in my 45-70, other than increased leading, is there any reason I can't use cast bullets in jacketed loads? Here is the load I want to use it for:
Cartridge: 45-70 Government (Lever Actions)*
Load Type: Rifle
Starting Loads


Bullet Weight (Gr.) Order BW Powder Bullet Diam. C.O.L. Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure

400 GR. SPR JFP-- 400-- H4198-- .458"-- 2.540"-- 46.0-- 1854-- 29,500 CUP-- 50.5-- 2002-- 39,400 CUP

You certainly CAN use cast lead bullets in lieu of jacketed ones in most cartridges for loads reaching up to 2700 FPS, and perhaps more. The lead must be of sufficient hardness to withstand the pressures needed to ghet the velocity you want, and for the vel. you quoted, it must be a gascheck bullet as well. (I have used inverted gaschecks over the powsder charge for plain-base bullets in the .45/70.)

I recommend you contact Veral Smith of Lead Bullet Technologies, and get a copy of his book, "JACKETED PERFORMANCE WITH CAST BULLETS" or a title similar to that.....

Right now, I am using PURE LEAD cast Lyman 457122HP 342-grain bullets in my .45/70 with 65 grains of Swiss FFg black powder, and a lubricated Wonder Wad on the top of the powder charge. MV 1350 FPS, and NO LEADING whatsoever! 40 grains of IMR 4064 performs the same, if you want to use smokeless!

New shooters of the 45-70 should note that some actions require different load data. The 1873 springfield (Trap Door Models) must have a light load compared to say a 1886 Winchester. The Marlins again may handle much higher pressures. You have to load for the firearm you own. Not all 45-70 are created equal.

I use jacketed bullet data for loading the 45-70, 30-06 and 405, currently. Used to load jacketed data for the 243 Win.
Jim

quote:

Originally posted by jpb:
I have to agree with Paul B based on my own experience.

I always work up, but I've never encountered a situation yet in which the cast bullet of equal mass did not yield (apparently) equal or lower pressure.

John

There are cases I`ve found of lead giving higher pressures then jacketed. I don`t know what makes them act this way but it does happen. The differences are not great and I doubt one would see it without pressure measuring equipment, but then..... Here are a couple examples from Hodgdon.

240 GR. LSWC CAST 240 Universal .430" 1.620" 6.5 852 11,700 CUP 10.2 1276 37,500 CUP

240 GR. NOS JHP 240 Universal .429" 1.600" 8.0 1018 21,900 CUP 10.2 1246 38,200 CUP

240 GR. LSWC CAST 240 HP-38 .430" 1.620" 5.5 800 12,000 CUP 11.0 1334 38,100 CUP

240 GR. NOS JHP 240 HP-38 .429" 1.600" 8.0 1021 23,800 CUP 11.0 1272 37,800 CUP

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

quote:

I don`t know what makes them act this way but it does happen.

What I have read is that in revolvers the base of the bullet is upset by high pressure loads in the barrel forcing cone and has to be "swaged" back down through the bore.

Tyler, you don't have a Marlin with a Micro-Groove barrel do you?

Well, shot up to 47.5 grains today and that is MORE than enough. I was at the shotgun range, and my boss wanted to shoot them through the chrono. 44 grains was high 1600s in fps, and at 46.5 grains...uhoh. After a couple shots working up to 46.5, the boss said wow, this little gun is kicking, hope it doesn't make me flinch. But alas, at 15 feet it made him flinch so bad he dead centered the chronograph. At first I didn't know whether to laugh or act like I felt bad, then he laughed, so I figured it was ok. The chrono jumped a ways back, 405 grains of lead going 1800ish fps dropped it, the chrono didn't even kick. I shot the last 2 loads at 47.5 grains, and although impressive on water jugs, had my shoulder aching, even with a shotgun vest with expensive recoil pad on it. In other news, 25 grains of H4198 is supposed to be around 1200 fps, but the chrono had it going around 900 fps, whats up with this?

Joe Miller, my 45-70 isn't microgroove, although I have two old Marlin 22s that are microgroove, and very accurate for their age and condition I received them it.

Published data: http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/RecipeDetail.asp...lid=1015&bulletid=29
It does seem that lead bullets DO cause an increase in pressure v jacketed bullets in some carts. I would not want to assume that you could sub jacketed data w/ lead bullets & not have a pressure problem. Your experience may be diff. but you are free to load as you choose.

In my limited experience, cast bullets loose all sorts of accuracy when pushed passed their limits and also start to lead your barrel real bad, beyond say 1500 to 1700 fps...

If you are using lead bullets, consider using SR 4759 as a powder in your 45/70... As stated by Paul 4198 can get a little iffy at max pressures... RL 7 is a better substitute for it...3031 is also a good powder for that...

Sr 4756 has also worked very well in my 444, as have 4227 ( either one)....

contact Oregon Laser Cast Bullets and they will send you out some load data, especially if using their bullets...

Lead bullets are best kept in lead bullets range...

The strength of tha cast bullet will determine the velocity that you can get. Adding the proviso, how much your shoulder can stand also.
If your bullets are .459 - .460, gas checked, hardened, with a good bullet lube anything you do with a jacketed bullet can be done with a cast.
Jim