Is anyone making their own jacketed bullets or consider making them?

I have ordered the gear from Richard Corbin for 4 different points styles in 416 caliber.

If anyone else is doing it or has done it, what sort of difficulties, if any, did you run into.

Mike

Rick Teal over at HuntAmerica.com has the Corbin setup. You might try him.

Mike,

I have not come across this in anything other than .22. Would you care to outline whats involved and what benifits it offers?

Peter

Peter,

It is similar to reloading except the presses and dies are bigger and more costly.

You can either buy jackets (which is initially what I am doing) or make them from copper tube.

It costs about $1000US to setup for one caliber and one point style. That includes a jacket trimmer so you can make any weight you like. It costs about $150US for extra point styles. Dies to make jackest from copper tubing adds about $400US.

To make jackets from copper or guilding srip takes the price to about $10,000 min and about $2000US for additional calibers. Although 3 jacket sizes would about allow you to make all calibers as the jackets are drawn down.

As to benefits, well for me there are a couple.

Firstly, 416 bore does not have the flat nose lever action type bullets that 375 and 45 have and for belting pigs and so on with big bangers the quick expanders are what you want. The 4 points styles I have ordered are for a spitzer hollow point that will be a scaled up version of the 130 grain 308 Speer Hollow Point, a 30/30 style flat point but with pistol type hollow point, a semi round nose and a flat base spitzer.

Accuracy should be better since you can make any weight you want and also experiment with different weights at the range and also different jacket thicknesses.

For me, I want to try and become independent of American supplies.

In the case of 416, because the bullets are so expensive, between the money I save myself and bullets I will sell, I hope to as a minimum have the gear pay for itself.

I am also getting the dies to swage bullets for paper patching. These are about $150US if you already have the jacketed dies included.

If it all works OK, then 375 dies will be next.

Mike

[ 08-20-2002, 14:55: Message edited by: Mike375 ]

Mike,

Sounds very interesting. I assume this all a cold swage process?? From the bullet styles you describe and the game you guys tend to shoot, I also assume these bullets will be fairly soft/quick expanding?
Can you make a "premium" or controled expansion style bullet and if so how do they compare quality wise to the commerical styles...

Peter

Take a peek: http://www.swage.com/index.htm

Peter,

Yes, these bullets will be 416 "varmint" bullets. The bullets are cold swaged.

As to types of bullets, you can basically make anything that you could buy commercially, but some bullets require the hydraulic press, which costs about $5000US. This will allow you to make partitions and mono metal bullets. My aim is to get the hydraulic press.

Bonded cores can be done. Tapered jackets can be done an dso can stepped jackets and also bullets with steel penetrators. Jackets can also be fractured at the nose.

As to quality, firstly remember I have not yet done it so I am relying on what I have been told plus some logic and some other information.

Accuracy is dependent on the jacket quality. For 30 caliber and down you would use J4 jackets, which is what bench rest bullets are made from. My understanding is that the jackets I will buy will be equal to non bench rest bullets. J4 do not make jackets suitable for over 30 caliber.

Jackets made from copper tubing will vary depending on the tubing that is purhcased. I can buy in Australia copper tubing that will make from 475 down to 400 caliber and this tubing would make accurate bullets. Not sure about other tubing size as at this stage as I only chased up that size. This particular tubing would make bullets with jackets .028" thick, so would be basically the same as the thin jacketed Hawk bullets. Copper tubing jackets are not really worth it as for the price of the dies you could buy 5 or 6000 jackets.

As I said earlier, I think I will be able to make more accurate bullets for "my rifle" since I can make any weight I want. So my bullets are likely to weight 306, 331 and 363 grains etc rather than 300, 325 and 350 grains.

In other words it will be like reloading in the sense that you could assemble ammo that was not as well made as some premium factory ammo but because the ammo is tailored to "your gun" it may be very accurate and the premium match grade ammo might shoot all over the place.

I suspect this is the reason why benchrest bullets are made at odd weights like 62 and 68 grains etc.

One of the things I have learned from the exercise so far is why so many custom bullets makers have gone in big with larger calibers like 375 and up. The reason is that it costs very little more to make 416 bullets than it does to make 270s but of course with Hornady, Speer etc. setting the basic market price, you can sell the bigger calibers for far more than the smaller calibers

In Asutralia, 350 grain Speer and Woodleigh 416s are $110Aus per 100 but 30 caliber Hornadys are around $35Aus, but there is not much difference in material costings.

Another thing I learnt is that bullet making is a bit like custom rifles in the sense that Hornadys etc could be compared to Model 70 and so on and premium bullets could be compared to mid range custom rifles. However there are bullet makers making extremely expensive bullets that you might compare to the D'Arcy Echols rifles and these bullets might cost several dollars each but very few of them are made. In other words these bullets might be more complex than what would be normally available from larger well know makers and also made to suit your individual rifle.

Mike

Mike,

$5000USD for a hydraulic press sounds steep! I think I would be eyeing up bottle or trolly jacks as a source of power! *G*

Can surplus brass be swagged into jackets? I am thinking that discarded military .223 or .308 might be a cheap and plentiful supply of brass...

Regards,

Pete

Pete,

You can do cases and of course 223 are just about all ready to go for 375. Check the diameter.

But if you check the price of copper tubing, I don't think you would bother with cases.

For example, tubing I could buy to do from 400 to 475 would would work out at about $36US per 1000 made jackets. Jackets are about $80US per 1000.

So for the cost of dies to make jackets from cases, you could buy a wheel barrow full of jackets.

22 rimfires are a bit different. My understanding with those is that accuracy will be excellent if the same brand of case is used for eaach bullet and if fired in the same rife, due to the firing pin indentation.

You can make bullets from rimfire cases with your loading press, although it is not as fast as the proper bullet swaging press.

So if you had a rimfire and a 223, the 223 could live off your fired 22 rimfire case. Real survival stuff

By the way, the hydraulic presses are power driven and range from about $1800US to $5000US

Mike

[ 08-20-2002, 18:43: Message edited by: Mike375 ]

Mike,

A couple of years ago I looked into the Corbin setup myself. I never "took the plunge", mostly due to limited setup space at home. It sure looked interesting. I called them as well as looked over their website, they seemed very knowledgeable and genuinely interested in helping me understand what was involved. I would like to hear how it goes with your setup and initial problems, lessons learned, etc. I'm still interested in setting up for 458's myself. I'm confident you could make it pay it's own way, especially in the "proper" calibers...375 and above. You're right, that's where the market will be for your bullets, no need to compete with the "bargan" bullet manufacturers. Now if they would just tool up dies for 600's....

Pete,

The hydraulic press Mike was looking at is more of an industrial unit, set up for volume (speed of manufacturing), as well as press power. More of a professional unit for manufacturing than a home unit for a hobbyist/reloader, if you will.

BigBores,

With the Hydraulic press or the Corbin Mega Mite hand press I think you can go to 20mm

I have gone with Richard Corbin rather than Dave Corbin for different reasons. But a bonus is that Richard's gear is lower in price and by a fair bit. Richard has a 4 month delivery time but said he normally beat that time. He has told me I should get shipmemt by first week of December.

One thing making your own bullets does do is to change around some of your caliber ideas with both 416 and 50 being two examples. One big reason I always favoured 375 and 45 over 416 and 50 was bullet availability.

A 500 A Square with a 50 caliber version of the 400 grain 458 Speer Flat Point, say about 500 grains, would be nice.

Mike

[ 08-20-2002, 19:03: Message edited by: Mike375 ]

I considered it, until I checked out the die prices. At this time there is too much selection available at retail to warrant the investment. I can understand your position, shooting as much as you do and wanting to wean off of imports. Plus, a little side business never hurts. Is Richard any relation to Dave?

Corbin Mega-Mite

They are brothers.

Here is Richard's website, you will notice the similarity of the gear, especially the expensive hydraulic press.

http://www.rceco.com/

I think Richard may have been designer/maker at Corbins.

Mike

[ 08-20-2002, 21:40: Message edited by: Mike375 ]

Mike375

Thanks for the idea.
Why not make your own bullets too? Great no time to wait for bullets that are orderd.

If you use your own bullets when handloaded it must qualify as "home rolled"
Is the next step to make cases for yo Mike375

I wonder if our dear host have any of these essential machines in his beduin castle? I wouldn't suprise me at all

I know what I will write down on my x-mast list

Cheers
/JOHAN

I have them in 308, 310 and waiting on some 312s. I'll expand to 6mm and 6.5 perhaps.
I found Richard easier to deal with. I think it's because he is smaller, but I switched to him because I originally placed an order for some 312s with Corbin Mfg. and received a set of 308s about 6 weeks later. No problem (sorta), but that wasn't what I ordered.
I found Richard's site quite by accident and have purchased from him since.

I beefed up one of my benches with some 1/4 steel plates and mounted them onto it. The bullets shoot just fine and I can make what I want.

Safe Shooting!
Steve Redgwell
303british.com

Steve,

I knew of Corbin but did a search on bullet swaging to get the site. A few down I could see what was obviously another site. I emailed both to start with and when the replies came back with signed Richard Corbin, I realised and then searched his site further.

I found some of Dave's replies had some Weatherby flavouring and like your wrong dies, some of his answers were not relating to my question. It was almots as if I had askes something about a 7mm Rem and the answer came back addressing the 338 Win.

I then spent a couple of hours with phone calls with Richard and found him very helpful and down to earth and honest.

How have your results been and what/who do you use for jackets?

Mike

Accuracy of both the swaged and bonded bullets have been on par with bullets from Hornady and Sierra. Better than the Woodleighs (sorry ) or Noslers. This is from a 30/06 and a 308. They are a protected tip spitzer design.
I use 2 sources for jackets. There's a fellow down the road here that makes jackets. I also have used the Corbin jackets. Both were the same. I wanted to order some Taipans to try, but I don't know about supply. They told me that they produce them in runs and get out their own bullets first (makes sense).
The only thing that I had trouble getting the knack of was how much lube to put on them. At first I used too much and they wouldn't swage up near the correct diameter. I found out by playing that if your hands are moist with lube, it's enough.
I was at the benchrest board and was reading a new section on making bullets. A lot of them use a tumbler. I found that strange because the lube would get inside the jackets. The idea of tumbling them for a few minutes appealed to me so I'll have to email them and see if they will release their secret!

Safe Shooting!
Steve Redgwell
303british.com

I just noticed that you're going to be making 416s. I'm assuming that you'll be using copper tubing. I've wanted to try that for my 45/70 and a friends 416 Rigby.
Here's a tip for ordering from Corbins. Don't order stuff like lube or cutters at the same time as any die sets. He waits until everything's ready before he ships. Since dies don't cost that much to send (even to Oz) you should separate any in stock material/products from the custom ordered stuff.
RCE has cheaper lube too. $20 vs $30

Safe Shooting!
Steve Redgwell
303british.com

For 416 I am going to use jackets made by a bloke over there called Butch Hairfield. Richard Corbin also recommened I start that way, which I guess was true advice as his copper tubing making dies are about $400US. Richard also recommended Butch so I figure Butch's stuff will be OK since it will be showcasing Richards gear.

Butch is going to start me off with two jacket thicknesses, .018" and .030". The .018"s out of a 416 Wby should just about make the whole side of a kangaroo, goat or pig fall on the ground.

Good to hear your accuracy results as compared to Hornady etc.

If all goes well for me I will probably end up with the big hydraulic press and the gear to make jackets from strip but it is about $10000US all up for once caliber and about $2000US for each additional caliber plus shipping and 30% import duty.

I contacted Malcolm Bone at Taipan and he said his supply of jackets was not reliable and limited to what he would have on hand. However, he may have been less than helpful with me being in Australia.

If my gear ends up paying for itself I will be more than happy as I would like to know I can be independent as possible. However, I would probably still end up buying Butch's jackets but knowing I can make my own is waht I want plus I could make some on of stuff in jackets.

It is different for us out here, especially if you don't just shoot stuff like 223, 22/250, 243, 270 and 308, stuff that every many and his dog owns and shoots.

Also, American bullets seem to be getting harder and harder. I think Woodleigh is also starting to make his harder for the American market so they will pass the shooting through the phone books test

Mike

I think that thinner jackets and softer lead are one way to go. It's an area in bullet making that needs attention. How many hunters want to use the bigger bores but have a harder time finding jacketed bullets that they can use on other than dangerous/African game? This is a niche market that's underserved.
It's true, bullets seem to be getting harder. My belief about that is because of a increasing use of magnums. The gun companies are supplying the market with still more (new) ones. When you consider that there are times when hunters want to use a cartridge with less power or load down a more powerful one, you can see voids in desirable bullets.
This is an opportunity that the big companies will ignore unless there's sufficient money to be made. Small fry independants can make a reasonable buck however because there's a market, they don't carry the overhead of the big guys and competition is not an issue.
Despite what GS is doing, I'm a fan of heavy and slow. Regardless, the problem of explaining to people how to select a proper bullet seems to wind them up.
I too, am looking toward working out of the house. I have "the Dungeon" and my reloading room so space is not a problem. It just seems to take so long to get all the necessary pieces. Then there's testing, changes, more testing....

Safe Shooting!
Steve Redgwell
303british.com

I think the harder bullets are a product of a particular form of marketing.

Because the average American does not shoot many animals, he has to rely on reports of bullets being fired through telephone books etc.

Having said that, it is interesting that Hawk Bullets make so many thin jacketed bullets in semi round nose.

Shooters out here that now know bullets will be made ask "can you make a 130 grain 270 that is soft and kills"

As a by the way, we should be shooting some camels next year and they are big animals and we intend to compare "premium" bullets in 416 against "blow up" bullets in 416.

Mike

You may want to look in at graybeardoutdoors.com. He's set up a swaging forum, and there are half a dozen of us or so who drop in there once in a while to exchange ideas. One of the visitors is Clint Starke of Starke Bullets.

I'm set up with a hand press making .35 calibre bullets. I have a tubing jacket making kit, but have just connected with Butch Hairston myself, and my first jacket order is on the way.

Of all the swaging processes, jacket making is the most difficult and most frustrating, and I think it's a good decision on your part to go with Butch's jackets. Mine will cost $.09 US which is about 15 cents CDN. The 3/8 OD tubing I use costs me about $.11 CDN before I start working on it. The labour I put into a jacket is worth far more than the 4 cents difference.

My bullet design provides for rapid initial expansion, followed my slower (though continued) expansion as the bullet penetrates. For dangerous game, I can also bond the cores to make the bullet hold together even more. The older design I based mine on would anchor a deer or moose to the spot with 180 grain bullets out of an SMLE.

Compared with jacket making it seems that a bullet just falls together once you have a jacket. As Steve says, then you get to go out and test them - which is a hoot in its own right.

I didn't know about Richard Corbin's operation when I ordered my equipment, but I think I will probably do some ordering from him in the future - particularly if I go to a hydraulic system. They seem to be much more reasonably priced than his brother's hydraulic systems.

I shot deer the past 2 years with my bullets, and I'm very impressed with the results so far.

Rick,

Thanks for that forum name.

I have just mailed over to Richard some 130 grain Speer 308 Hollow points as I want to reproduce that bullet in 416.

Assuming this thread topic would pull in anyone on this site who is involved in making jacketed bullets, it is interesting that there are no Americans, just 1 Australian and 2 Canadians.

Richard has told me I should have my gear by December and my basic plan is to do some extensive testing and if all goes well I think about February I will order either his Benchmaster hydraulic or his Hydraswage hydraulic press.

I think I will set up so as to be able to jackets from copper tubing, just to know I can do it. Likewise with jackets from strip metal.

The next dies I will get will be for 30 and 375 and also dies for 22s from rimfire cases. I will have enough jackets from Butch to last me personally 3 lifetimes.

Mike

MIKE375,
I played with making my own bullets some years back. I didn't stick with long enough to find out if I wasn't doing it right or if there was another reason why I couldn't get them to give the performance I wanted. I did reach the conclusion that the savings didn't off set the labor and cost. I went back to buying bullets. Enough time has passed that I'm sure the equipment has improved and my experience may no longer be valid. Good luck.

What you really need is a set of die blanks and a lathe to be able to machine your own ogive profiles. That would seem to be to be half the fun designing the shape as well as tinkering with the weights.

Please put me down for a bonded 200-250g r 9.3mm VLD

How do you do bonded cores?

1894

Put the cores in the jackets, plus a bit of flux and then melt. Then swage to shape/dimesnions.

I am quite keen to see how they go with very thin jackets and flat nose hollow points on things like pigs.

Mike

Me and my mate will buy some of those .416 hollow points Mike, can you make me some in 410 grains so they will shoot pretty well the same as my beloved woodleigh 410's ???

PC,

You can have any weight that you want. However, it may well turn out that it might be a slightly different weight that shoots to the same point.

I am going to try some 340 Woodleigh, 350 Speer, 350 Barnes X, 400 Hornady and 410 Woodleigh to get an idea of what weight hollow point shoots near these bullets.

As you know I have a 416 Wby, another bloke I know has a 416 Rigby in the Ruger and I will probably get a CZ 550 in 416 Rigby so that will be a reasonable test bed. The bloke the rus the local gun shop has a 416 Rigby on an M17 with a Douglas barrel so that is another 416 that I can test some bullets in.

In addition I need to get a Tobler Number 5 in 416 Wby for this rifle so that I can test in a match grade barrel. I will get him to thread the barrel for the Wby Accubrake that is on this Wby.

Do you know of anyone who has a 416 Taylor or 416 Remington?

Mike

Mike375
I also ordered equipment from Richard Corbin. He was the design brains behind Corbin. Apparently he decided to go out on his own. As far as delivery time goes I think you would be lucky to wait only 4 months. My order went to him in November of 2000. I have Emailed him a number of times-he always replies promptly-he stated he is getting out his back orders faster, but he still has more to go. He found a shop to do his flat work and that should speed things up. I'm confident the wait will be worth it. As far as jackets go,I may, at sometime do tubing jackets, but I bought 500 jackets from "the other Corbin"to start with. I intend to focus on bonded core bullets of 180 to 200 grains in weight.

FYI, benchrest.com has just set up a bullet making FAQ that's pretty neat. Quite a bit of input from the benchrest bullet makers.

http://www.benchrest.com/FAQ/1.shtml

HTH, Dutch.

Jungli Bains,

I spent quite a bit of time with him on the phone a couple of weeks ago and he said he was moving through the stuff. I also got the impression it might depend a bit on the caliber. He seem to feel December 1 should be fine for shipping by. I think he has also has some of the other work done outside now.

Butch Hairfield the jacket maker said he though 4 months should be OK but 12 months or more if from Corbin Mfg.

Just have to wait and see I guess.

Do you intend to sell any of your bullets.

Mike

[ 08-23-2002, 18:39: Message edited by: Mike375 ]

Dutch,

Thanks for that link.

Mike

Mike, I posted that I had been waiting since November of 2000 for my order, I meant to say 2001. I work nights and was a bit confused. I may sell my bullets, but first I want to make some and try them on my next safari.

Mike that would be ideal to have a good blow up bullet that shoots to the same POI as the woodeligh 410's

PC,

What about a 500 grain 416 that is a copy of the 30/30 flat point but with hollow lead point and thin jacket.

Should be able to get 2350 with Rigby and 2400 with 416 Wby.

Mike

Mike that would have to have some "splat". I just think for explosiveness there is a happy meduim between weight & velocity. Actually a .416 500 grain bullet would be long and offer excellent penetration.

Have you used the .458 sierra 300 gr HPFN's ? I have killed over a couple of hundred heads of game with these projectiles and they perfrom excellently for what we shoot. I launch them from my marlin 45/70 @ 2150 fps thereabouts. There pushed along by 52 gr of AR2207. I have also used the woodleigh 45/70 405 gr FN. But it is to hard for hoppers and does not expand. Those 300 grain sierra's open up on soft game quicker than a hookers legs

[ 08-24-2002, 18:52: Message edited by: PC ]

PC,

I have never used the 405 grain but use to use the 400 grain Speer flat point from the 458 loaded to right on 2000 f/s and 2100 f/s. 70 grains of 4064 did 2000 and 70 grains of 3031 did 2100.

It dropped roos and pigs like lightning.

Have used the 300 Hornady and that was also good but in the 458 the 400 grain Speer gave better and more consistent accuracy.

The 500 grain 416s I am thinking off would have jacket thickness like the 300 grain 45/70s and also the hollow point up front.

Mike

Mike,

that sounds pretty good, how thin can the jacket be ?.

Why have the major companies not offered a 500 gr .416 bullet ??. If the rigby and the wetaherby could drive it at 2300-2400 fps would it not be a much better penetrator than a .458 500 gr bullet @ 2400fps ??

The analogy here would be that the .416 with 500 gr bullets would be like the 6.5x55 swede which penetrates excellently with it's long slender 140-160 grain bullets.

PC,

The jackets will be .018" and copper.

Probably no market for 500 grain 416s. The sectional density would be the same as a 201 grain 6.5.

Mike

Mike wouldn't a 500 gr .416 bullet perform better on African stuff than a .458 500 gr due to better penetration ??