I may have poseted on the accuracy, of this load before , But I chronied it today and am real happy.
The load is 50 grains of H-414 over the 140 grain balistic tip.
The rifle is a Ruger #1A in 7X57 mauser, built in 1981 with a 2X7 Leupold VX2.
I shot three three shot groups and got .50 .75 and with one called flyer 1.5 for a avarage of .90. Throw out the called flyer I got a .60 avaarge.
The chroney gave me a reading of 2877.
That is just fine with me and I will try the same load with a 140 grain acubond partition and tripple shock,
The B-tip will be great for mule deer , but if I go after a caribu the Accubond might be a little better.
Should I ever take my little sweetie to the dark continent the partition or tripple shock would be a very good choice for anything from impala to kudu.
PS, I tried a 51 grain load and had no preasure signs but I only picked up about 20 FPS so 50 will be the charge.
...tj3006

The computer states that you’re a little hot with 50 grains of H-414. You are a little over 2,000 psi above Pmax, interestingly the computer agrees with your chronograph reading by -20 fps.

In the Nosler manual (fifth edition) they stop at 49 grains of H-414. According to the computer their load of 49 grains is 800 psi under Pmax, Nosler also publishes a volocity of 2790 and the computer said 2799 fps.

Your test load of 51 grains produces a load that’s over 6700 psi about Pmax with a volocity only 40 fps above your 50 grain load.

Food for thought.

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
The computer states that you’re a little hot with 50 grains of H-414. You are a little over 2,000 psi above Pmax, interestingly the computer agrees with your chronograph reading by -20 fps.

In the Nosler manual (fifth edition) they stop at 49 grains of H-414. According to the computer their load of 49 grains is 800 psi under Pmax, Nosler also publishes a volocity of 2790 and the computer said 2799 fps.

Your test load of 51 grains produces a load that’s over 6700 psi about Pmax with a volocity only 40 fps above your 50 grain load.

Food for thought.

"Every rifle is an individual. What may be a maximum load in one may be quite mild in another, and vice versa." BOB HAGEL, GAME LOADS AND PRACTICAL BALLISTICS FOR THE AMERICAN HUNTER

What Hagel said is still true today. It is impossible for you to conclude that Mr. Jones's load is "a little hot" without having measured the pressures he is getting IN HIS RIFLE!

I know of several cases in which people are using up to 53.5 grains of WW760 or H414 with 140-grain bullets in long-throated Ruger 7X57mm rifles, and their cases last for more than 10 reloadings. The instrumental velocities for some of these loads ranges from 2998 to 3020 FPS.

If their pressures were excessive, their brass would have become useless long before the ten reloads level is reached!

Food for thought.

I'll agree with El Dugello

The computer? doesn't know a thing about an individual rifle. For that matter, Hodgon's manual (for Ruger only) shows 49 grains H414 with a 168 gr and 51 with a 145-150. I have only shot 7800 rounds of these in three 7x57's from Idaho to Namibia, as well as checking them with a pressure trace. They show 63000 psi, which is a max, but not real high. I currently have two 7x57's a Ruger and a Mk X, which is even longer throated than the Ruger. There is so much variation in the chambers in these rifles generalizing will drive you nuts. I had a Win. 70 Fthwt. years ago that I had some loads with 51.5 4350 and a 140 grain that went almost 2900 fps, when I sold the rifle and later acquired the Ruger I fired these original rounds in the Ruger and the velocity wasn't quite 2750 fps. This was from the same box of ammo in two different rifles. You just can't make assumptions with this caliber on velocity, or pressure, and sure as hell don't buy a new rifle and load 53 gr H414 behind a 140 grain bullet and head to the range, you may have a problem. It is my main hunting cartridge and I have used pretty much all of them, I have volumes of load data for one of these. RL19 and H414, along with 4350's are the first powders to try.

Thanks for the replies.
My #1 has a prety long throat, I also like RL-19 in the 7X57 with heavier bullets. I had a CZ that shot them real well.
I would love to get the Hornady 154 grain interlock to shoot in any of my 7mm Rifles but so far no luck. I think I have tried it in about 6 rifles and 5 chamberings so far...tj3006

El Dugello

The information was offered to Thomas as a reference. He has his experience with his load and I was adding to that with information from 2 other sources. “A little hot†doesn’t constitute a dangerous load in my mind, maybe it does in yours. Only Thomas can determine if his load is safe not me.

I don’t trust the computer over published information, the computer has been known to be wrong. Don’t you find it funny that the computer can predict the velocities of Thomas’ loads and of Nosler’s load within a few fps. Just because you can’t see the obvious signs of excessive pressure, don’t mean that it doesn’t exist.

I have loads that are “Hot†not just a “little hotâ€. Like Thomas and his load, I’m the judge of the safety of those loads.

There’s nothing wrong with a little food for thought.

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
El Dugello

The information was offered to Thomas as a reference. He has his experience with his load and I was adding to that with information from 2 other sources. “A little hot†doesn’t constitute a dangerous load in my mind, maybe it does in yours. Only Thomas can determine if his load is safe not me.

I don’t trust the computer over published information, the computer has been known to be wrong. Don’t you find it funny that the computer can predict the velocities of Thomas’ loads and of Nosler’s load within a few fps. Just because you can’t see the obvious signs of excessive pressure, don’t mean that it doesn’t exist.

I have loads that are “Hot†not just a “little hotâ€. Like Thomas and his load, I’m the judge of the safety of those loads.

There’s nothing wrong with a little food for thought.

"There’s nothing wrong with a little food for thought." No, there isn't. I agree!

The point I was trying to make is that ONLY YOUR INDIVIDUAL RIFLE CAN TELL YOU WHAT IS ACCEPTABLE, AND WHAT IS NOT. And it is quite possible that Jones's loads are not even a little hot, IN HIS RIFLE.

quote:

El Dugello

El Dugello

I can concede your point. But there is an average load ratio that we all have to pay attention too, and all of us go from there with caution.

I allways apreciate when experienced reloaders share info.
especially when it concerns safty. I would bet that in a rifle that was throated so that i had to seat the bullet deeply one would have a higer preasure curv.
...tj3006

quote:

El Dugello

I am flabbergasted!!! There is someone other than myself left that hails back to thrilling days of yester year's method of loading for the individual rifle. I've been chastised by the manual quoters mantra "thou shalt not never ever under any circumstance exceed a published maximum load from a manual (even if the manuals don't agree) no matter what" that I usually don't bother responding anymore. It was refreshing to read you posts. I tip my hat to you sir.

Larry Gibson

I,m with you larry !
I have reloaded for around 25 years now, And call me crazy if you want , but in a modern rifle , once I am confident the rifle is not throated real short and I have confidence ther is nothing wrong with it, I very often start my loads with the max listed for a givin bullet weight.
I will admit I have had some experence with a givin load seeming a little hot and deciding to back off a bit this way , but never anything that I thought was truly dangerous...tj3006
I

Hey, great advice...start at the max and work up!
Peter.

I think all parties are ( partially ) right.

The ones saying, "never to go over manual max" are right - the manual producers make measurements, and for a given case volume, given specified bullet weight and "standard" circumstances ( no manual producer would use a TOTALLY off - spec gun! ) and a specified propellant charge going over max means EXACTLY thta: you go over max pressure for that chambering´s specification!

BUT: as the cases for e.g. a 7 x 57, newly made, will take the same pressure as a newly made .300 WSM ( well, approx the same pressure, case design differs ), and a newly made gun in 7 x 57 will take the same pressure as in a .300 WSM ( rather more, as there is more "flesh" = steel around the case ) the found loading recipe is probably ABSOLUTELY safe in the gun stated.

It might be well to stick to published data, as the round may found its way in another, not so strong gun - that´s what standards are for! Even if this gun will have a tighter chamber, ... results might not be catastrophic, if you stick to recommendations. Get more propellant, and you are at your own!

Even if another part of the gun / powder / ammo / ... combo fails, if you are over "Manual MAX", there will be no looking for another reason for a "KaBoom": "the load was over max...", "the fool filled in too much powder...", - you get my point?

So if over max, at least mark each cartrige, each box, red paint them ...

Just my .02 ...

H

Thomas, this turned out to be a good thread, it’s generating good discussion without backbiting.

I’m working up a 7X57 load too but for a No 1 RSI, 2 inches shorter than your rifle. I’ll let you know were I end up.

By all means mick, let me know how it shoots.
Peter I think you are going a little far.
I would not for example buy a low numberd 03 springfield and fire my 1st round at or near max.
But If I bought a new lets say a CZ 550 chamberd for the 6.5 swede, and I discoverd I could seat the bullet way longer the what the book says and not be up into the lands ,I would most likly start at the max.
I own 20 some rifles and have loaded for many many more.
I have in I think 28 years of reloading blown exactly 2 primers.
You may have more and different experence than I do.
But most manuals are very conservitive. Look at the loadings for the 7X57 mauser and or the .257 roberts. In many mauals it will say somthing like loaded to 50,000 LBS cup.
I have 2 rugers one a roberts and 1 a 7X57.
Both models can be bought in the 270 .308 7mm mag .243. All are sammi specked at 52 or 53,000
So a load at 50,000 cup should be safe to shoot. Especially in my 7X57 cause it has a long throat and I can seat the bullets long lowering preasures abit.
Mabye one day I will die with a rifle bolt sticking out of my eye , but I strongly doubt it. Not trying to sound cocky But I know what i am doing .
...tj3006

Thomas, you are right of course. I said it with a little tongue in cheek. The 7x57 is an interesting case because it is an old round and new rifles can certainly be loaded to higher presures than the original specs. I have a CZ FS in 7x57 and have a similar problem ie. the loading manuals do not clearly state the specs that they are loading to. Having said all that, I try my damndest to stay below max. and will look for another powder if I have to go above max to get the accuracy I want.
Peter.
Peter.

I used several eight pound caddies of H-414 back on the days when it was cheap. Burned it mostly in an '06 but some in a Win .308 My non sientific impression was that the stuff showed more lot to lot variation than any other powder I ever used. Be carefull!

My humble oppinion. "Don't stack the odds against you". Start low and work up if it is a new/unknown chamber. It is usually the experienced skipper that flips the boat.

The load that works best in my 7x57 is 49.0 grains of H-414 with 149 grain Nosler Partitions.
My rifle is on a M-98 and no signs of pressure with that load.

Don

Hey Thomas, That is some mighty fine groups with that size scope. Have you ever tried a scope with more power on it just to see what accuracy it is actually capable of?

Sounds like an excellent Hunting rifle and cartridge to me. Good Hunting and clean 1-shot kills.

Frankly I don't see where a more powerfull scope would tighten my groups any. I have a 4.5X14 on my 25,06. I really don't think I will ever use anything over 10 power on a big game rifle again.
I think more important to group size from the bench is a small aiming point on you target...tj3006

quote:

Originally posted by Thomas Jones:
Frankly I don't see where a more powerfull scope would tighten my groups any. ...

Have you ever tried shooting a group with your scope set at 2x and another at 7x? If so, which was the smallest group?

Or, if the 0.50" and 0.75" groups were shot at 7x, can you duplicate them at 2x?

quote:

Not trying to sound cocky But I know what i am doing.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:

I have a CZ FS in 7x57 and have a similar problem ie. the loading manuals do not clearly state the specs that they are loading to.

Some loading manuals do make such a distinction.

I have a 25th Edition (1986 copyright) of the Hodgdon Data Manual (a 500+ page large hardbound book) and it does give two sets of loading data for the 7 x 57 -- one given as regular, and the second set designated as "7 x 57 Mauser Heavy Loads For Ruger Only." (At that time only Ruger was producing modern strong rifles in 7 x 57 for the American market.)

The problem for the 7 x 57 in America is that there are still a lot of trapdoor Springfields and other unworthy rifles in 7 x 57 out there, and they definitely will not handle hot loads. Because of that the loading companies in America have almost always underloaded 7 x 57 ammo.

quote:

The problem for the 7 x 57 in America is that there are still a lot of trapdoor Springfields and other unworthy rifles in 7 x 57 out there, and they definitely will not handle hot loads. Because of that the loading companies in America have almost always underloaded 7 x 57 ammo.

Close, but no cigar. If there was ever a Trapdoor Springfield made in 7x57, you'd have a collector's item worth millions. I believe you meant the Remington Rolling Block rifle. That's OK though. I too have brain pharts on occasion.
Paul B.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul B:
Close, but no cigar. If there was ever a Trapdoor Springfield made in 7x57, you'd have a collector's item worth millions. I believe you meant the Remington Rolling Block rifle.

Yes, you're right. My bad!

I don't remember what power I had my scope set on when I took the rifle to the range last.
But when I am at the bench I get very steady on sand bags. I shoot at a tiny red dot 100 yards away, I generely shoot with my scope set on the lowest power at witch I can see the dot, if I turn up the power and the dot gets bigger I now have to try and center the cross hairs , but when the dot is small, I only need to get the cross hairs on the tiny dot and squeeze.
I have a 1X4 power on my 45/70, I Think I shoot it on 2 power at the bench. I get real close to moa with the marlin this way. Give it a try sometime...tj3006

I don't know about you guys, but I can shoot as good a group with a hunting rifle a nd a 6x scope as I can at 10x. A 4x scope will make the groups bigger but not a lot.

My custom Mauser in 7x57 has an early Leupold 2 3/4 power (Pre-M8) scope that has a yellow tinted lens. I shoot groups in the .75 to 1.0" range with it all the time.
My normal target is a 2.5" square with a 1.0" white center. Normally, I align the horizontl and vertical crosshairs of the scope along one of the corners of the square rather than use that white center. On the variable power scopes I've always used the highest power available, bit maybe I should try using something in the 2 to 3 power range, just for splits and grins.
Paul B.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul B:
My custom Mauser in 7x57 has an early Leupold 2 3/4 power (Pre-M8) scope that has a yellow tinted lens. I shoot groups in the .75 to 1.0" range with it all the time.
My normal target is a 2.5" square with a 1.0" white center. Normally, I align the horizontl and vertical crosshairs of the scope along one of the corners of the square rather than use that white center. On the variable power scopes I've always used the highest power available, bit maybe I should try using something in the 2 to 3 power range, just for splits and grins.
Paul B.

I like the 3-9 power (or higher!) variables just for this reason. At the 200 yard range, with the scope set at 9 power, I can usually see the bullet holes on the paper through the scope even with a .22 caliber rifle such as a .223 or 22-250, so I don't have to use a spotting scope. I'm not sure that the higher power scope produces any tighter groups, but it certainly does aid in seeing the results.