About two weeks ago, my new Forster dies in 7mm-08 arrived, and I promptly got a case stuck in the FL sizer die. Been reloading for many years, and that's the first time for a stuck case. I had lube on the brass, but apparantly not enough. Since then, I use more lube.

So, I ordered the Forster stuck case remover from Midway, which worked ok. I knarreled the outside of the die a little, but no damage inside.

So, last night I went to work on some loads to test in my new 7mm-08 rifle. First I FL sized one piece of brass, then tested it in the chamber to see if the bolt would close. No-go. In order to get the brass sized so the bolt would close, I had to set the die down by first raising the shell holder all the way up, then screwing the die down hand tight on top of the shell holder, then lowering the shelholder and turning the die down 1/4 to 1/2 turn more. Then I raised the shellholder all the way up again, hard against the bottom of the die, then locked it down with the lock nut. To remove the die, I have to raise the shellholder up against the bottom of the die, to relieve the tension on the lock nut.

This is the first time, in a long time, that I've had to do that to get the brass sized enough, but this is my first experience with Forster dies. It's kinda interesting because I'm thinking the chamber and the dies are a good match, at least on the shoulder. Apparantly that's pretty rare. At least it hasn't been happening with my other dies, RCBS Redding etc., and various rifle chambers. Usually, I don't have to turn the die down hard on the shell holder to size the brass enough so it will just fit in the chamber.

Does anyone have a similar experience with the Forster dies? Are they that precise, or did I just happen on the odd circumstance where the dies and chamber specs are very close match?

KB

I use Forster dies in all calibers where I can get them. I prefer them to all other (factory) dies.

I have not personally run into a situation, where I could not size cases sufficiently with Forster dies to have them chamber. But dies and chambers come in all sizes, so it could definitely happen. Thinking of Forster dies in general, the one thing I don't particularly like, is that they tend to size brass a tad much just above the case head. But then again, it is a matter of die vs. chamber size whether this is a problem.

Some dies need the shell holder filed down just a tad to size cases sufficiently. A head-shoulder gauge (like the Hornady) will tell you how much you push back your shoulder (if any) during sizing. Also, mark the case with soot or a magic marker to get an idea of which dimension is the limiting factor in chambering.

- mike

Was the brass 1X? Had it been fired in the same rifle?
I only have one set of .223 Forster dies and they work okay for me.

I do use a large assortment of dies incluing Forester. Never yet experienced that problem with the Forester dies. I have , however, often had to bring down the die farther than touching the shell holder to allow for for press stretch or deflection. Personally if something had to be ground it would be the die and not the shell holder. That is of course unless you have a dedicated shell holder with that die. W
With respect to the stuck case, try Bardahl; no joke roger

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
Was the brass 1X? Had it been fired in the same rifle?

Yes and no. The brass was picked up at the range, and it was 243 brass, which I necked up.

I have a tapered expander ball on a FL die for another cartridge, so I used that die to expand the neck, then used the Forster die to finish the job.

It might be different with true 7m-08 brass, which should be here in a week or so.

Anyway, the dies worked as they should. I'm relatively sure that the reason the brass stuck was due to insufficient lubricant.

Part of my inquiry was about the instance of finding a chamber and die which seems, at first try, close in dimensions, or closer than normal experience, except for some custom dies I have.

KB

Gentlemen,
For clarification, I'm doing a little re-thinking about dies. For many years I have used RCBS mostly, and Redding sometimes, so I've been sorta in a rut about that.

Lately I've bought some new dies, for new cartridges I'm loading, and replacing some too. So, I'm tring to learn new tricks, although I'm getting to be an old dog.

Here are a few observations of lately - but they are not absolute facts, which apply on a broad scale, just little things that I'm still working on, and figuring out.

The new RCBS dies I've bought seem smoother and actually better than those from the past, but they still work the same familiar way, especially about the primer stem alignment, expander ball, and the seating die too.

Redding dies aren't seeming as smooth now as I once though they were. I've replaced one set, and thinking of replacing another.

I bought one set of Hornady dies in 8x60S, because alternative dies were very expensive and custom. That probably broke the ice on die selection for me, because I found the Hornadys nice to work with and smooth. I have formed about 100 pieces of 30-06 brass (range pickup)with them already.

So, I now have three sets of Hornady dies, and with the limited experience with them, they seem fine. 7.62x39, 35 Whelen, and 8x60S.

Now I've bought the Forester dies, which on first try, I like.

I'm thinking about replacing a 280 Redding die set, because - as best I can explain right now - they don't feel right, in sizing and seating.

Anyway, just trying to learn something new.

Anyone have any comments on the Hornady dies, in comparison?

KB

I use a lot of Forster dies in various rifle calibers and have never had any trouble with them. Unless you order a die to be specially made--which Forster will do for a not prohibitive extra fee, their dies are made to SAMMI specs, which for most cartridges, means that they are fairly roomy in order to accommodate the most commonly reamed factory chambers.

Should you continue to have a hard time using your die I would suggest that you call Forster at (815)493-6360. Ask for Robert and explain your problem to him. I am sure he will be able to help you.

That's good info to know. I think the second sizing of the brass, after it has been fire-formed in my rifle's chamber, will tell me if it's really a problem.

KB

when I resized from .243 to 7-08, since you're only opening up the neck, the end product looked so close I went to a full power load right off. Results, ie accuracy and velocity were fine.
FWIW, I used Lee dies for that job. That probably makes me a bad person.

When all qualities and features are considered I usually prefer the Forsters with the BR seater.

Second are RCBS, then Redding. The one Redding BR seater that I have is superb but expensive.
Because of price and availability I have way more RCBS than any other brand.

I have a wide array of other dies such such as CH, Pacific, Eagle that I think are suitable.
I avoid the old chrome plated Lymans because they tend to be so tight. Lee's sizers are well dimensioned but I don't like a lot of the other Lee features.
I avoid Herters unless nearly free because they are basically bottom of the line junk.

quote:

Are they that precise, or did I just happen on the odd circumstance where the dies and chamber specs are very close match?

The answer is, "You got lucky." That said, Forster makes fine dies.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
Was the brass 1X? Had it been fired in the same rifle?

Yes and no. The brass was picked up at the range, and it was 243 brass, which I necked up.

All bets are off if you size brass shot in another chamber. Personally, I would not even bother worrying about die adjustment for pick-up brass. Who knows what that chamber will have looked like, and it is unlikely you'll ever obtain brass that needs the exact same die setting. In particular for a US reloader, and for brass as readily available and as cheap as 7mm-08, I would consider it a waste of time trying work out how to adjust dies for pick-up brass. YMMV....

- mike

"Range brass" will size and function exactly like any other brass, no die readjustment will be needed.

I use forster dies for 338 lapua and 308. I prefer forster, redding, lee, rcbs and lyman in that order.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim C. <><:
"Range brass" will size and function exactly like any other brass, no die readjustment will be needed.

That very much depends on what the reloader considers acceptable in terms of sizing.

Do you use a head-shoulder gauge to determine the amount you size your brass?? If yes, you will easily be able to observe, that the dimensions of sized brass depend at least on the following factors:

1) size of fired brass (which in turn depends on the chamber it was fired in).
2) type of brass and number of times fired (has an influence on springback)
3) die dimensions and die adjustment.

If you start out with brass fired in a larger chamber, you'll need a different die setting than you would, if the brass had smaller fired dimensions. Unless you are likely to obtain a whole bunch of pick-up brass fired in the same chamber, you'd be forced to set your die to sufficiently size the largest of your pick-up brass to chamber in your rifle. Using this setting might well give you excessive shoulder push-back on brass fired in other chambers. Not a safe practice.

- mike

Well, I set the die as I described above, hand turned down onto the shell holder, plus 1/4 turn to take up spring. I sized all the brass that way with it. Since then, I've shot most of it once. If it was set wrong, or the setting caused a problem, it hasn't come to my attention yet.

It will be interesting in the future, because I bought a Hornady FL sizing die, which will neck up and size 243 brass in one pass, since it has a tapered expander. I'll see if it needs adjusting down hard on the shell holder to get the brass to fit.

KB

quote:

Do you use a head-shoulder gauge to determine the amount you size your brass??

Matter of fact, I do. I have and use both RCBS Precision Case Mics, Hornady's bushings on a caliper and a shop made variation of the Innovative Technoligies dial indicator shoulder gage.

That's why I made the statement I did, it's backed by my experience with some precise case gages. I've found small sized case shoulder variations, 2-3 thou, in everything; different brands, fired and resized, etc. Seems small differences comes from slight differences in the brand/alloy and number of times fired, but I see nothing different based on what it was fired in.

It seems small variations in brass alloy are present in every box of cases. I find as much finished (loaded) variation in cases of the same brand fired from my own rifles and same number of times fired, even within the same box, as I do with freeby 'range' donor cases.

quote:

Do you use a head-shoulder gauge to determine the amount you size your brass??

The way I've been doing it is to size the brass, then clean off the lube and try it in the rifle chamber. If the bolt doesn't close, or I feel resistance, I lube the brass again, and turn the die down a little, size it, wipe again, and try in the chamber again.

And so forth, until the bolt closes easily, or with light resistance. I usually check several pieces in the batch, then proceed to size them all with the discovered setting.

So, with the attitude of learning something - what's wrong with the method I described, and what am I missing?

KB

quote:

So, with the attitude of learning something - what's wrong with the method I described, and what am I missing?

You are doing fine. In fact, you are doing what we all did decades ago, before all the measuring gadgets came along. We loaded good ammo then too!

All the gages I have are interesting to a reloading geek like me because they let me KNOW what I'm doing with my sizers but the end goal is to obtain a good chamber fit. Your's fit too, soooo....??

What you are missing is all the fun I have tweaking things and knowing for sure what I'm doing. Actually, I recommend such a gage but it's certainly not necessary!

BTW, your question about Hornady's dies; There is too little effective difference in their sizers to matter but their seaters aren't close to matching ForsterBR/Redding Competition seaters

quote:

The way I've been doing it is to size the brass, then clean off the lube and try it in the rifle chamber. If the bolt doesn't close, or I feel resistance, I lube the brass again, and turn the die down a little, size it, wipe again, and try in the chamber again.

And so forth, until the bolt closes easily, or with light resistance. I usually check several pieces in the batch, then proceed to size them all with the discovered setting.

So, with the attitude of learning something - what's wrong with the method I described, and what am I missing?

When you resize the same case several times the 2nd and subsequent sizings do not put the same load on the press that the first sizing does. This causes a few thousandths variation in headspace length with a bottle neck case. If you have set your die to an almost exact match to your chamber you will have some cases that are tight chambering because of insufficient sizing of cases that are "swollen" more than what your chamber produces.
You can deal with this variations two ways.
Set your die so that it will size a "worst case" case to fits your rifle on the first pass. When you use brass fired in different chambers they may cause the finished sizing to vary a little bit. Just make sure the worst case works. The rest have a little "loose" headspace by a few thousandths but not much.

The other way to deal with it is to set your die so it will resize your brass right on the button when it is fired in your chamber. When sizing brass fired in other chambers size it slowly, then withdraw the load on the case and retract it from the die slightly until free to turn. Then recycle it into the die slowly again effectively sizing it twice. When you check your brass you will find it is sized much more uniformly when "double sized". Once you learn this you will quit having a mysterious tight case show up in a box of your ammo.
You will also discover your ammo is mysteriously more accurate too. However you will have to live with that problem. I can't offer any suggestions for that one.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim C. <><:

BTW, your question about Hornady's dies; There is too little effective difference in their sizers to matter but their seaters aren't close to matching ForsterBR/Redding Competition seaters

That's info I've been waiting on and hopeing someone would say something. I've been holding off on ordering a set of dies, just for that info. Tonight, now I can order Forster dies and not have to second guess myself.

Thanks, and thanks for the other info too.
KB

quote:

Thanks for that info. Now, tonight, I can order my new set of Forster dies, and not second guess myself.

No second guessing required.
Read Jim C carefully he knows his stuff. The Forester BR seater is about the best you can get for the money. I happen to like the sizers too. I just wish that the Forsters were made in a lot of other calibers.

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
You will also discover your ammo is mysteriously more accurate too.

You got my attention. I had never really given range pick-up brass much thought. Now you've given me something to think about. I am certainly interested in learning some new technique, because I really like the small groups.

Put another way, lately and often, at the range I'll have this great group going, say three shots, then the next shot flys out of the group. Damn, that's annoying, and it's got to be something in the load - run-out, odd weight bullet, something beyond my present capability to eliminate or discover in advance. I don't want to get too carried away with it, like a BR shooter, but I'm sure there are several small things I can do that will make a big difference in consistancy.

I now have some rifles that I'm sure are capable of fine accuracy, if fed the right handloads. So, just throwing together something that goes bang isn't good enough any more. I spend all this money on gunsmith tweaked rifles, so it only makes sence to tune up my loading technique too.

It's a small thing, interesting, and doesn't cost hardly anything. Better handloads don't cost near as much as gunsmith time and skill. Might as well do my part and develop skill too. After all these years of pretty much doing it the same way - it's about time.

I've ordered new brass, so I'll see if the groups with this rifle tighten up. They are not bad already, using the range pick-up brass and the crude techniques I described, with Sierra 150gr match bullets, and Nosler 140 gr BTs. The rifle I'm talking about is factory out-of-the box, so its performance with the first tests shows me that it shoots better than normal, with an un-tweaked rifle. So, I know the rifle has potential. Now it's a matter of consistancy and improvment in technique.

This is my first experience with the 7mm-08, and it's a dandy.

Thanks,
KB

quote:

It's a small thing, interesting, and doesn't cost hardly anything

Yes it is pretty much free to set the dies exactly right. But you often have to size each case with 2 strokes to get the shoulders exactly the same. I usually rotate the case 1/2 turn between strokes.
To easily measure the difference takes a set of calipers and one of the Hornady tools or some thing that check the head to the datum distance.

Range brass is not necessarily bad since you get it free. The main problem is that you probably do not get it in large lots of the same lot number and headstamp.

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
Range brass is not necessarily bad since you get it free. The main problem is that you probably do not get it in large lots of the same lot number and headstamp.

I managed to pick up enough to make a batch of fifty in R-P brand, but obviusly not the same batch, just the same brand.

KB

If you have a digital scale sort them by weight distribution to see how much they vary.
Just remember brass is about 8X heavier than powder.
You might find one or two cases way off. If they are all within 5 to 8 grains they should be ok.