I will post this on the hunting forum also, just to get some coverage and feed back....

I am in the process of training a batch of young boys who are now reaching the ages that they can take hunter education courses here in Oregon... most are boy scouts... but not all...

So if interested in helping out with sharing some of your experiences.. it will end up going a long way in helping young shooters interested in taking up hunting...

A lot of experiences exist on this forum… both some good and some not so good….

But a lot of our fellow forum members bring a lot of experiences to the table…

And the beauty of this forum ( at least most of the time!) is that we can share those experiences with each other…

With that in mind, I would like feed back from those that desire to provide it on the subject of Varmint Style bullets for use on Game the size of deer….

The parameters are though, that the use will be at MV under 2500 fps…Most of these bullets are designed to be explosive at higher velocities, however as the impact velocities decline, so does explosive performance…..

So what I was looking for is experiences with these type of bullets and their lethality on deer sized game… antelope count also…

I have my own experiences, but I wanted to have others share theirs and compare notes….

The whole background or motivation for this exercise is to work up loads in the usual deer sized calibers, 6.5 and up… We all know the less powder and the lighter the bullet, the less recoil the shooter experiences… This aids in shooter confidence by not being afraid of their firearm’s recoil… and also lets them learn to place their shots more easily into vital areas….

Two schools of those on lethality…. Some desire complete penetration and an exit wound to aid in a blood trail…. Others believe more in the bullet expending its energy within the game animal and believe that leads to not needing a blood trail to have to follow because the animal dropped more quickly with more internal damage….Hollow Points and Ballistic tips cater to this school of thought…..

Anyway, experiences appreciated…. Hopefully this will not digress into the all to common name calling debates a few like to participate in….

Your experiences are going toward training of young shooters and getting them use to our sport and passions…. Which runs against the tide in a lot of locales around our country…

Thank you in advance… from seafire and seafire jr.!

Cheers
seafire & seafire jr.

Sea Fire:

A. Never use Varmint bullet on Game, they are too thin, even at 2500 fps.

B. At 2500 fps, any soft point "game" bullet will work just fine on Deer.

C. Exit holes always prefered to bullet retention. Exit holes bleed, and give a blood trail if you need it.(Except in the guts, then it just doesn't matter).

D- Z. Nothing beats bullet placement.

Don' have much to add to Terry's statements. Most "hunting" soft points opens up down to 1,800 fps, two holes are better, and teach them enough biology to shoot the critters where it does the most good.

After safety, the most important thing is to teach them to shoot accurately, but very quickly. No time to set up a bench when the elk are moving over the ridge...... JMO, Dutch.

All that I can tell you is that a 30cal 150gr Nosler Balistic Tip with a initial velocity of 2950fps, will go through 1 2/3 deer (stopped in the offside shoulder blade of #2) at 300yd (you should be able to calculate the impact velocity from that). #1 was doubled lunged and made it about 50yd in knee deep snow, while #2 dropped in it's tracks with a broken spine.

I'm not advocating shooting "2-fer's, but that is the only BT I've fired that didn't go all the way through while leaving massive damage in it's wake.

The first insident was the biggest mule deer I ever shot; a large super fat 6 point(western count). The bullet was a 140gr Speer 6.5 leaving the muzzle of my Carcano at 2300fps. The deer was 30 feet away and the bullet entered his chest at a downward angle not exactly head on.It traveled thru a lung, clipped a rib and slid between the skin and the meat and bone for about a foot.The initial impact knocked the deer on his ass with his front legs still holding up the rest of his body. That animal was looking at me square in the eyes with a surprised look on his face. He held that pose for what seemed to be an eternity and than just calapsed.The bullet was tore up on one side only and really did not do much tissue damage.

Another mule deer taken with the Carcano was hit with a 160 grain bullet just accross the top of the heart at 100 yds. The deer took two or three slow steps up hill, fell, and rolled down the hill.That bullet was going around 2100fps. The bullet went through the animal did little tissue damage and was not recovered.

The next was a large doe facing me at 75 yds with an 87 gr. FP, out of a .257 loaded down to 25-35 velocity.The bullet caught her just under the chin, traversed the length of her neck taking out her jugular and ( stinking) asophogus. The bullet entered into her inerds without doing much tissue damage, may have knicked her spine but was not found. She trashed around some till I got to her but before I could use my knife she was already bled out.

This may not be what you are looking for, John, but perhaps you can glene something usefull out of it. roger

With all the very good hunting bullets out there, I think using a varmint bullet on deer is sending the completely wrong message to "young shooters".
It is at best a lack of knowledge; at worst, a hotdog display.

quote:

Originally posted by iwzbeeman:
With all the very good hunting bullets out there, I think using a varmint bullet on deer is sending the completely wrong message to "young shooters".
It is at best a lack of knowledge; at worst, a hotdog display.

Cheeee Beeman... tell us what you really think...PS.. Your hotdog is done...

I would say that if you can't shoot a big gun then you can't hunt big game.

If you can't draw the bow then you can't shoot the arrow.

Gidday Seafire,

I have yet to recover a Ballistic tip from an animal.

It hasn't mattered whether they were driven hard (30 cal 150BT at around 3032) or slow (6.5 120BT at around 2500). I always get complete penetration (which I prefer) on all game I have shot with this projectile up to and including big reds.

I have never had a failure with these bullets and neither have a couple of mates who use them in 243 (95gr at 2650 fps) 270 (140gr at 2820) and 7x64 (120gr at 3140). As you can see we are not exactly pushing the envelope velocity wise but boy do they work.

Another mate who loves the 243 85gr Sierra HP drives them at 2770 and finds that they drop deer, wallabies, pigs, goats and turkeys without bother. He has only recovered 1 bullet and that was a quartering shot on a very large boar with the bullet found under the offside shield.

We all shoot a variety of game from bunnies through goats chamois fallow sika whitetail, red deer, thar, pigs and wallabies. These loads just plain work.

We don't push things and keep the ranges to under 300m. We also all pick our shots and don't pull the trigger unless we are 100% confident of a fatal hit. Occasionally the confidence is misplaced but not often and a quick follow up has resulted in meat on the plate.

I hope this what you are after mate.

HGappy Hunting

Hamish

i joined the air force in 1958 and got stationed at malmstrom afb in montana. i always said if i got stationed anywhere west of the mississippi i'd be happy. boy was i happy. like a hog at the trough.

being i was an fng everybody kind of took me under their wing. when hunting season came along i got invited to go out.

problem, the only centerfire rifle i had at the time was a 220 swift. i knew absolutely nothing about hunting other than varmints.

i used to hang out at a sporting goods store and talked with the owner quite a bit. i asked him if that was enough gun for deer. he said no, not with the factory loads. they use popcorn bullets for varmint hunting varmints. he asked me if i reloaded and i said yes. he pulled a box of sierra 63 gr spire points off the shelf and said but these will put them down.

so i looked in my trusty #5 speer manual and they had a load for that bullet. and loaded a scad of rounds. got all sighted in and waited for the season to start.

my first opportnunity was a big muley doe. she was uphill and about 75 yards away behind a tree and just standing there looking at me. the only thing i could of her was a little bit of rump and her neck and head.

so i went for the neck shot. as soon as i fired she just jumped a little bit and slumped forward. i thought to myself, so whats so difficult about hunting. i found out in later years. i had beginners luck.

a 22 centerfire is probably adequate for hunting if..........you use properly constucted bullets and the shots aren't in the next zip code.

one other thing to remember, kids at that age think their parents are the most illiterate individuals that walk the planet. i remember my formative years and when i left home and returned a few years later how much my father had learned during my absence.

the key for young hunters is repitition and consistancy. and don't tell them to do one thing and you do another. they will stick that one up your nose.

just as i don't use a 22 cal on deer i've never used varmint bullets. close as i can get to that is 120gr x bullets in a 6,5 swede. it's a soft shooter and light to carry.

i would think some of your blue dot loads would be exquisite for this purpose. especially since they are beginers and should be taught stalking skills. the object of the game is hunting, not shooting at long range.

good luck on your venture. in some ways i envy you. it's a great opportunity.

Too bad you limited this discussion to LOW velocity. Otherwise I could give several examples of bad/poor bullets that didn't do the job asked. Several months ago these was another thread about this subject that was not limited as this is. Much info could be gleaned by reading that, IF you can find it.

The only LOW velocity shots I can share are with the lowly .22LR. Don't matter what the animal, beef, deer, elk, coyote, prairie dogs, or humans. THEY WORK!!

*******NOTICE: Day after this was posted, Hot Core sent me a PM about my 'advocating' breaking the laws using a .22 on game and asked me to clarify this, here goes.

I don't recall ever posting this info before where I didn't include: "when I was a kid associating with people that were bad influence's back in the late 1950's and early 60's. I spent my summers living and working with an old rancher in the mtns of Colo. He taught me many things, but, he was an avid poacher, killing one or more elk each summer. He got me into doing that. YES, it is and was then: against the law. So is using a .22 on elk, deer, or any other game species. I do not advocate this, nor do I intend to break these laws either. "In those days, I had a bad influence and did much poaching, nearly all of it with a .22". Once I gained enough age and associated with more law abiding hunters and people in general that had good ethics. I saw this was not the right thing to do and stopped doing so. I also have given many thoughts to the fact I've hunted many yrs without even seeing game, even after hunting very hard. The question I have after this is: "did I kill my quota out of season? OR is this punishment for killing so many I wasn't entitled to? Many times payback is rough, sometimes like this may be, no one else knows about it, but, it just might be payback anyway. Think it over.

This post was asking for LOW velocity bullet performance. That was my only experience's with a LOW velocity bullet.
End of notice"********

Mostly head shots, instant death. Under the ear, or center the brain are the only reliable shots with a .22. Another time druggie friends shot one of their own guys in the ribs with a .22 and he bled to death before the medics arrived in 5 minutes.

One time in a dead end canyon we boxed a grown buck in by accident. I was with several other guys blocking the narrow outlet and wanting to test a .22LR on mule deer lung shot anyway and there was no way this buck could get away to suffer. One shot did the job in less than 100yd run. I was within about 40-60yds, this was many yrs ago, so it's hard to recall exactly the distance. When I dressed it out both lungs were deflated like a fish's get. No further damage I could find other than a small amount of blood in the chest cavity and one small hole on the near side lung. Did not fully penetrate the far lung. This particular bullet hit between the ribs center in height and near the back edge of the front shoulder, in other words "a perfect shot" if not for being another illegal poaching incident.

Even a lowly .22 is DAMNED dangerous and a sure killer with proper bullet placement.

IF you want to open this up to high powers and high velocities I can provide several examples of that to demonstrate actual bullet failure.

Teach 'em right, SAFETY all the time. Muzzle direction to the ground, or sky. Nowhere else will do, action open unless hunting, or storage.
Treat all guns all the time as if they are loaded, they should be!

NEVER EVER enter a vehicle with a loaded rifle or shotgun. Even then: ALWAYS muzzle down to the floor. You can live without a foot, but, try it without your head! One time I was with two others when I was 15. The A/H to my right had his 30'06 muzzle up and it went off. My ears have been ringing since, I'm now 62 and lost most of my hearing due to that one incident. BE SAFE ALWAYS and enjoy guns and the outdoors.

George

With my .308, using 165 and 150 gr. SST's, all but one of my deer have been complete pass through.

The one that wasn't was a 150 yard shot on a big doe. Broke two ribs and lodged under the hide.

Seafire,

good luck with your venture, it is just great that someone dedicates time to introducing young people to the sport.

Especially for them I's suggest that you go for complete penetration, as we know even with a perfect shot they can still go for a while and the blood trail is quite easy to follow when they bleed from 2 big holes on either side.

By the way, the perfect cartridge for roe deer in the woods seems to be the 9.3 mm with a 193 grain SP bullet loaded to 700 m/s or so. It drops them on the spot and you can even eat the hole, like a donut. I downloaded the 9.3x74 R with N110 a little bit over the 9.3x72 R's performance level, Blue Dot shoots equally well.

First off, I want to thank you for considering terminal performance in choosing a hunting load for your younger companions. It's careful thinking by guys like you that keep hunting a legitimate, and sporting endeavor. Also, way to go in trying to develop a hard hitting load for use by hunters without your level of proficiency. As we all know, kids can be turned off pretty quickly when something doesn't turn out like planned, like tracking a wounded white tail for a good distance in tough terrain.
You're definitely a "hunter's hunter".
I look forward to some "Helpful" advice from our fellow hunters and reloaders as to bullet performance at lower velocities.

Great Thread!

seafire--

Good on ya for investing your time in hunting's future. All of us should take a lesson from you and pitch in and do our part to insure our children and grandchildren and their children and grandchildren have the opportunities we enjoy!

DUK< STEVE and Dustoff...

Thanks for the Kudos guys...

Figured that is a little more productive with my free time than sitting and watching the Boob Tube...

Had three boys out today with a 22.250 and 55 grain FMJs at 3400 fps... at first two of them were flinching, but after a while they were getting the hang of it...

Next trip out we are moving up to a 243 with 75 or 80 grain bullets in them at 3000 fps or so...

2 of them are 12 and one is 13....

Want to locate where their level of recoil tolerance is.. then work up some deer loads for them at that point...

Keeping records on all of this, as well as their targets at 50 and 100 yds...

Each boy shot about 30 rounds of 3 shot volleys... their accuracy was increasing from that alone...

We identified the flinch in 2 of them, and got one to be able to overcome it... the other still would be able to shoot minute of deer at 100 yds with the 22.250...

As I said, next week it will be the 243, but I am also going to zero my CZ 452 for 100 yds, and have them practice getting use to scopes at that distance....

I think it is as rewarding for the boys as it is for me personally...

I shot a few volleys in between their first couple of ones.. and then they saw how accurate and tight a group I could get at 100 yds, they got real pumped up... I gave credit to the rifle and told them that anyone can learn to shoot that well if the rifle is up to it...

todays lesson was courtesy of a Stainless Ruger 77 Mk2 with a Laminate stock and a 3 x9/44 mm Tasco scope...

Again, thanks for the kudos...

cheers
seafire

Last year I found the 80 grain Remington PSP pushed to 3250 fps from my 243 is a good deer killer. To the far side penetrtation and the bullet reained 50 percent of it's weight after shattering 5 inches of spine at an angle.

I would certainly help you if I could, but I have never used a bullet designed for varmint shooting on anything larger or tougher, in fact, quite the opposite. I do almost all my hunting with Nosler Partition bullets, even though I recognize that these are generally not required for deer-size game. Once I get a good Nosler partition bullet load developed for a rifle, I use it whenever I take that particular rifle hunting.............. Matter of fact, I used to use my Mannlicher/Schoenauer .270 carbine for shooting porcupines and jac=krabbits in New Mexico when I worked for the Forest Service in Bluewater. That rifle with the Sierra 110-grain PSP and 58 grains of IMR 4350 would spread a jackrabbit all over the mountainside!

John,have you ever given the 60gr. barrier bullet in a 223 any thought? I know the deer out your way are generally deminutive and that combo may be just perfect for a recoil sensitive youth. If you don't have any of the bullets I'll be glad to send you some to test. roger

I loaded up 100 .30-06 using the Rem 125 grain bullets at about 2500 fps for a gentleman with arthritis. Last I heard from him, he had killed six deer with six shots.

There ain't no magic in the case. If a bullet will kill deer from a 7.62x39, the same bullet and the same velocity will kill deer from any .30 caliber.

There's a local father/son team that hunts whitetail at woods ranges with .264 Mags loaded with 100 grain bullets. They waste a lot of meat, but they don't lose no cripples.

That's more than can be said for the few remaining hardheads who hunt 90 pound deer with 180 grain bullets. They get penetration, but they don't get no expansion on cross chest shots, and I have been in on some mighty long hard trailing jobs because of it.

I am a big fan of Nosler BT's and have never had a failure. 125's in the .308 and 165 and 180's in my .300 Win. mag. Now I am playing with 125's in the .300 but for varmits only.

Roger;

I'll take you up on that offer for some of those Barrier bullets for testing...I have never really seen any.. and don't know where to get them from...so you assistance would be greatly appreciated...

cheers
seafire

Seafire, I have been following this thread and the one over at the Big Game forum. It seems as though the quest for the perfect bullet at reduced velocities is a difficult one. Or is it? After reading your posts it seems to me that you are a fan of the Ballistic Tips for these lower velocity loads. I could use your help in selecting a bullet for my 7.62x39 (.308) for Whitetails. Do you think the 150gr BT at 2150fps at the muzzle would be a good choice for deer out to 150 yards or should I go with the 125gr BT with 2250fps?

Have you ever had a chance to try Hawk Bullets?
http://www.hawkbullets.com/maintest.htm
I am told that they work well at lower velocities.

Thanks

.

Steve,
I am not Seafire but I have used BT's quite a bit. I think I would use the 125's in the 7.62x39. I have used them in my .308 with good success.

Steve,

In the velocity range of the 7,62 x 39, there are a lot of bullet choices...around here, I'd probably go with the 125 grain BTip... because the deer are smaller...

However, after living in and hunting Minnesota and Wisconsin for 15 yrs, back there I'd load up the 150 grain BTips strictly for the little extra bullet weight, because the difference in the size of the deer in the Upper Midwest...

I know a batch of guys who hunt around here with the 7.62 x 39.... mainly in the Ruger bolt Action, instead of a Mini 40 or a SKS....

HOwever, I have seen good luck also with the 110 grain Sierra HP, the 110 grain Hornady SP, the 125 grain Sierra, the 130 grain Speer HP and FN, and the 135 grain Sierra, along with the 125 and 150 grain Ballistic tips....

A 150 grain FN or RN at 2150 would pretty much be duplicating the 30/30....

One guy I run into loads the 125 grain Sierra HP/FN usually for the 30/30 in a 7.62 x 39.. with a charge of RL 7.. He has a 1 x 4 Bushnell scope on his Ruger Bolt Action, and is mainly doing his hunting in brush.... say 50 yrds or so..He really likes the way that Sierra HP/FN opens up... says it drops them instantly.... discovering them on some Federal Ammo for his granddad's 30/30....He can do recoil based on a shoulder injury...

I think you have a lot of good choices... just see what your firearm likes to shoot the most accurately....Most of these guys that I know that do shoot the 7.62 x 39, seem to like RL 7 powder the best for accuracy...

As I gave away the only rifle I had in 7.62 x 39 to a nephew some years ago, that is what I can share....It was an SKS... but I can see a New England HandiRifle coming my way one day with a barrel in that case size just to play with....

hope that helps some...

Cheers
seafire