MY RELOADS FOR MY .307 WIN. ARE CAUSING THE LEVER TO START TO KICK DOWN, OR IN OTHER WORDS MY ACTION STARTS TO OPEN UP AFTER EACH SHOT, AND AFTER 6 OR 7 SHOTS MY RT HAND THAT HOLDS THE LEVER FEELS LIKE IT HAS BEEN POUNDED ON BY A HAMMER FROM ALL THE VIBERATION. I'm LOADING AT MIN. LOAD LEVELS; HERE'S WHAT MY LOAD CONSISTS OF: IMR 4064 38.3gr, cci primmers, rn siera 150gr bullets,using the hornady 7th. My primmer hits are really deep compared to factory loads that i have shot. It seems like i'm getting high chamber pressure. Primers don't appear deformed just hit hard. Thanks for any help.

You may want to ask this in the gunsmith forum.

muck

They list the max load on their web site as follows:
4064-33.3 grains with a 150 grain bullet

That said you might think about reducing the load some.

plainsmen 456, i'm not sure where you got your data from, but my hornady 7th's data is; 4064,minuim 38.3,39.7,and max is 41.7. my other referance is Speer no# 11; 40.0, 42.0, 44.0. SO in all instances i,m way below max. Talked to my local gun shop smith, and he did say i could reduce below minium and see what happens, it just seems that this shouldn't be the answer i should be able to be at min. load ranges and not get this much presure.

Change powder the rifle might not like the light load. It can have a pressure spike or uneven ignition. Try a slow powder like norma 202, Vihtavouri n140 with better filling of the case.

First of all stop shooting those loads. They may not be safe. Second, my first question is are you trimming your cases to length? If not that could be causing pressures to peak. Otherwise it is difficult to tell what is going on from the internet, but you need to carefully acess the situation and figure out the problem before you shoot any more of those loads. That should be a very mild load in the 307 and shouldnt be a problem but something isnt right. Are you certian that you didnt use the wrong powder or bullet?

You may want to pull them apart and weigh the charges and bullets just to be sure, I once had high pressure signs and pulled the loads apart to find that the charge was a full 3 grains over the max book loads, the only explanaition I could come up with is that I must have bumped the balance beam scale weight up 3 grains and not noticed. I now check every charge I weigh that the weights are where they should be.

Even with too high a pressure the lever should no be opening on its own, I would have that checked out for sure.

thanks for your replies i have tried to make a few ajustments that haven't made any difference. i went from a 170gr bullet to a 150gr, i've messed with with the crimp, all my cases have been trimmed to 2.005, i have broke some loads down and have done checks, no promblems have been found. This problem has gone on for the past year, since i have started loading for this cal. I've loaded and shot about 100 rounds. The only thing that has worked is when i've dropped the load way below min. When i went down to near 30/30 loads 34.0. i haven't changed the powder because it's the same powder i use for 30-06, 7mm-08. The only thing i do different with the .307 is i crimp. The next time powder becomes avaiable i'll look into changing. But like i said earlier one difference between my reloads and factory ammo is my primmer strikes are noticable deeper hits in the reloads.

It may be dangerous to use loads under the recomended minimum. Change powder or use factory ammo.

nordic2 It is danderous to under load. And i wouldn't have done it, but i talked to a local gun shop owner and a he is a experenced reloader and he said that i shouln't have to worry, and i have put through about 40 rounds with no problems. And yes i do wear gloves. I had them on yesterday, i had to anyway it was only 15 degrees out. They do help the stinging of my hand, but the lever still opens up. The lever doiesn't open all the way up, but it does come down a couple of inches. I thought it was the way i was holding it,and maybe the recoil was causing it to be pulled down but when i used to shoot factory ammo in it, it never was a issue. I haven't shot factory ammo in it since i ran out,last year and have only been shooting reloads since. My other lever that i reload for .45colt henry rifle i have no issues with it. However pressures are way lower.

First, I would try some factory loads and see how they perform. You may have a head spacing issue. Since your load is quite light your necks may not be expanding enough due to the lower pressure to tightly hold the case in the chamber. If there is a slight head space issue the cases will set back , this may be why you are seeing the deeper primer indent of the firing pin as the case sets back and impacts the breach face and the extended firing pin. The reward motion of the case may be the cause of the action to begin to move.

If it helps; Headspace is the distance from the breachface to the part of the firearm’s chamber that stops forward movement of the case. It is also the slight fore-and-aft play normally found when a cartridge is chambered and the action closed.

Scoutmaster54 You may be right and i have thought about this, But the .307 is a rimmed cartrige so it head spaces on the rim. but still you may be right about neck not holding enough. My cases look fine no bright ring above the head area and no splits or dents around the shoulder and neck area, and from what i can tell no black marks leaking around the primer pocket. And remember when i reduce the loads below min the problem starts to go away. I'm definitly leary about steping up the charge to make the necks expand more, also like said i used to shoot factory loads in this until they have become very scarce and expensive. So i started reloading them. I also had another person fire it and after 3 shots he was shaking the bees out of his hand too. But i believe what said about the rearward action of the caseing is whats happening, its what i have been running though my mind too, now i just have to figure out how to fix it.

one more bit of info is my seating depth for the 150gr siera is 2.527, my book lists the c.o.l. at 2.530 and max at 2.560. my seating depth puts my crimp right at the start of the cannelure,so i still have the with of the cannelure that i can seat the bullet deeper. Also my current neck dia. after loading is .337, and load data says it should be .344.

Just because you are shooting a rimmed case does not preclude you from having a head space issue. You still could have too much clearance between the breach face and the rim, i.e. fore-and-aft play. This same situation often happens with worn or damaged shotguns that head space on the rim.

You may not see case related issues as primers may not blow or necks split. You might see some powder residue along the body or a very slight movement of the shoulder forward though this might be hard to measure but you may feel it on f/l resizing.

What happens if you remove all the oil from the locking block and fire the rifle at reasonable temperatures like above 40 degrees?

The easiest way I have found to demonstrate lever-kick is to shoot maximum published loads using 170-grain bullets and Winchester 748 or Hodgdon BLc2. Maximum loads at temperatures above 90 degrees Fahrenheit will generally kick the lever, a sure warning sign you need to reduce your load for these hot days.

Does the same thing happen when you shoot factory loads?
If so then you need to get your rifle checked by a GOOD gunsmith.

I have shot a lot of lever rifles, and I have never had one kick the lever open.

How is excess headspace going to cause high chamber pressures? It is not. The OP may have that issue too, but it is not why his loads exhibit excessive pressure signs. But then, deeply indented primers are not usually associated with very high pressures....

Since factory loads were fine, the OP is doing something wrong. When did he last calibrate his powder scale? I bet never. What type (not brand) primer is he using?

This is an odd problem and may not be able to be fixed over the Internet. We canot see what is happening, only relying on the OP's observations.


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Even at high pressures you should not be getting back thrust like that. You would get back thrust if your cases had lubricant on them so they wouldn't grip chamber walls.

you are correct Tx i have not propery cal my scale. it is a 505 rcbs that i got new with my press in 1986. I have only used different bullts weights to ck it from time to time. Like i said though i have never exceeded mimcharges of this cal and the max charge is 41.7 and 44.0 in my speer manual.And i load 3 other calibers, all in mid range loading data. My primers are cci large rifle.I realize this is a tough problem to solve over the net, but i thought i'd give it a try first before took it to a smith. I have been trying to figure this out on my own for over a year now and the only thing that is working so far is to load under published min. data. Yes i have shot on warmer days, and there is less stress on my hand, but the action still starts to open. thanks for all your help, i just thought this would have happen to someone else before.

unque, I always clean my cases with a cloth after sizing, and i always full length resize, and i use a clean cloth.

one other thing that i'm going to try,but i don't think it is going change much is i have 80 cases that i have once fired, and are load ready. I'll load a few of these up. the 40 cases that i have been using all have been fired 5 or 6 times, but show no signs of problems that i can see, but maybe need to be changed out.

Sorry i did not have my glasses on and looked at 30-30.

I would look real close at the rifle to make sure nothing is amiss.

Then you might just need to change powder types.
Hope you get it figured out.

thanks plainsmen456, thats something that i am going to try as soon as powder becomes available up here again. Hornaday gives me 3 other choices, and speer gives me 8 other selections. Win 748 is one that is recommed or H 414.

quote:

I have shot a lot of lever rifles, and I have never had one kick the lever open.

I know this is going to sound really dumb on my part, but talking about the lever kicking open, is the gun exerting that much force as to be opening up the shooters hand from around the grip and out of the lever loop.

I am shooting a Model 94 Win. in .38-55 and the best performance I get out of that rifle is with a load that is 3 grains over the listed maximum in the Barnes #3 manual.

The listed max. load in that book is 32.0 grains of IMR3031, and the load I am using is 35.0 which is the max. load listed in the old Lyman #45 manual. The primer indents look the same from either loading and the 35.0 grain loading produces a little more felt recoil, but not punishing, not causing my hand to tingle and not causing the lever to try and open.

I am, just having a difficult time understanding how the gun is exerting enough energy to open up the shooters hand from around the grip and out of the lever.

crazyhorse, i had to hold my gun the way i shoot it to answer you, its not something that i think about; anyway i don't place my thumb over the tang, or top of the gun. i ride it along the side of the stock, which does give me a weaker grip. i just never thought about it, and my 3 fingers in the lever handle never come out after a fired shot. As i said the lever only unlocks a couple of inches, it doesn't fly open all the way. I shoot all 3 of my levers the same way, this one is the only one that does it. the .45 colt henry recoils like a .22. The combination of a heavy gun and mild loads really is no comparison to the .307, and don't get me wrong i'm not trying to compare the two. But to your question if i were to rap my thumb over the tang with firm pressure, i don't think the lever would open. i'll give it a try.

I wonder if the poster meant the lever stings his hand as though the action were trying to open.

Is it possible for the action to open on a 94 Winchester when the locking lug is vertical? You have the bolt pushing against the locking lug from a 90 degree angle, how would it transfer this horizontal force to vertical one?

Wasn't it P.O. Ackney that took the locking lug out of 94 Winchester, thoroughly cleaning the chamber and cartridge of any oil, wax, or lube and then firing it. He wanted to demonstrate how a cartridge case obturates to the chamber wall. The action never open in his demostration which he fired remotely for safety.

I want to add a similar occurrence is trigger slap on Smith & Wesson revolvers.

Wasn't trying to stir things up. I am just used to placing my thumb over the grip and squeezing on the lever and grip when I shoot. The problem you atre experiencing sounds like something that can't be cured by simply changing the way you grip the gun. The deeper indent on the primers, between factory loads and handloads, sounds like something else is causing the problem. Maybe there is a head spacing problem.

no problem crazyhorse, i've just paid attention on how i grip the gun until you asked. Yea my problem will need more correction than just my grip. I'm going to use some brass that has been once fired, and raise my sizing die up a little. right now i have it set to just cam over now. Maybe the change will help the case shoulder be futher forward in the chamber. Also this brass has been full lenght sized, and trimmed many times, it may not be expanding enough in the chamber, and thats why it's recoiling back against the bolt. Thats about the only thing left to try i guess. after that go see a smith to check the gun out.

I would suspect the gun first, then the brass being properly sized and finally the actual load.

If you hold the lever tight to the stock with one hand, can you push the locking lug down with a wooden dowel? There could be either wear or simply poor manufacturing issues. If it locks and stays locked tight, next try it with a sized but not loaded shell and ensure everything stays locked.

Either way, the gun should really be inspected in person by someone qualified to do so.

Mark, i tried your test and gun stayed locked in both instances.

quote:

Originally posted by TX Nimrod:
How is excess headspace going to cause high chamber pressures? It is not. The OP may have that issue too, but it is not why his loads exhibit excessive pressure signs.
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A serious headspace issue will most certainly display unhealthy signs even without excessive pressure. And I would bet that this IS a headspace issue.. But not nessecarily the guns fault.

What happens in ultra slow motion (even with normal headspace), is at ignition the primer actualy moves slightly out of the pocket first toward the bolt, and then the case follows re-seating the primer as the gases continue to expand. Hence the deeper primer marks. The firing pin position does not change, but the primers are moving farther out of the pocket toward the pin. It may just be that the particular brass you have is not compatible with your chamber and not headspacing properly. But it sounds very much to me like a headspace problem.

GET IT CHECKED!! Most Gunsmiths will check your headspace for a very reasonable price. Some may even do it for nothing..

If it is a headspace issue and you keep firing it, the problem will just get worse and eventualy catastrophic..

One possible scenario is that the factory ammo is actualy headspacing on the shoulder (even though it is "supposed" to headspace on the rim), and your dies are pushing the shoulder back too far. You could try necking the brass up a bit and then back down with your 307 dies but not with a FL resize, but rather adjust your dies only just enough to allow it to chamber. Then you would force it to headspace on the shoulder like a 308.

wstrnhuntr, thats what i am going to try. as i said a couple of post ago i'm going to adjust my sizing die up to it just touches my shell holder. i had it adjusted to cam over, ie 1/8 of a turn down after it contacted the shell holder. Also my 40 cases of my brass are on their 5th,6th or 7th time being sized. I think that with triming and working them though the press they are notexpnding enough in the chamber and as you said the shoulders may be pushed back too much. I've got lots of brass, so i'll try some of my once fired stuff. from what you said and others this is what i think will solve my problem, i've got 6 rounds loaded just waiting for some better weather here in northern NY to get to the range. I'll let you know how things go thanx.

Have you forced an oversized cartridge into your bore? Possibly bending the finger lever or some other part?
My question is does your rifle truly lock up fully in battery?

You say your factory rounds were fine so that leaves your hand-loads (cartridges).
Sounds like the full length sizing of the cases isn’t right and perhaps even though your measure of OAL is ok it still doesn’t mean that the shoulders are correct to obtain it. Do you have a Case gauge and have you checked the bore OAL with the bullet you are using? Like the free bore in a bolt rifle?

I haven’t had a lever gun in years but remember it was easy to pull the bolt out so you can still measure the distance from the muzzle to the bullet siting up against the lands. (using two wooden dowels from the hardware store) Then replace the bolt and measure to the bolt face. Does this make sense for a lever rifle? Please correct me if I'm wrong, guys.
Vin

vinnyg, i have not had to force a round into the bore, all rounds chamber normally. You are most likely right about my full length sizing,and i have made a adjustment. Yes my rifle truly locks up. I have never taken the gun apart, and i've had it since 1990, and yes the gun gave me no problems for over 200 rounds of factory ammo fired from it. As i said my problem started about a year ago when i started reloading for it. So it just stands to reason its more of a reloading problem rather than a gun issue. If this resizing adjustment does not fix the problem then i'll take in and have a gunsmith look at it.

Update on my lever kick problem; I think the problem has been solved. I fired 10 shots off, 4 with once fired brass, and 6 of brass that i have loaded a few times, and all fired flawlesly. The level did not kick down at any time, and my hand did not take a beating, primer strikes look normal. Adjusting the sizing die made the difference. The die is set at just touching the shell holder, as opposed to where i had it set at 1/8 or so of a turn after contacting the shell holder (per RCBS instructions). Thanks for all of your input. Now i'll go about working up a hunting load.