My friends dad was trying to explain a way of putting a bullet in an empty cartridge and chambering it with the bolt closed. He said that it will give you an accurate idea of how deep to seat the bullet for that exact gun action. I'm not sure if I completely understood him. Have any of you heard of a similar tactic....and if so, is it necessary??? Thanks!

Yep! If you have a Nosler reloading manual, it describes this process.
I simply take a fired case, and press on the case mouth until it will just 'hold' a bullet, and then close the bolt slowly, and then you have a dummy cartridge with the OAL length that seats the bullet against the lands.

I always build one like this for each rifle just too see what a given case and bullets OAL would be to get the bullet's Ogive to the lands.

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Originally posted by Fish30114:
Yep! If you have a Nosler reloading manual, it describes this process.
I simply take a fired case, and press on the case mouth until it will just 'hold' a bullet, and then close the bolt slowly, and then you have a dummy cartridge with the OAL length that seats the bullet against the lands.

I always build one like this for each rifle just too see what a given case and bullets OAL would be to get the bullet's Ogive to the lands.

.....and "OAL" stands for what????

It works, but know this -you're actually measuring C.O.L. at about +.010" since the bullet has to be into the lands to acquire witness marks. This process works even better when bullets are "smoked" with carbon from some source since they don't have to engage the lands as deeply as naked bullets do.
Since you're a new handloader, I'd also suggest that you buy a case length gauge. For about $10.00 it will save you a headache (proper die adjustment, headspace & case length) that isn't easily seen by the inexperienced. I still use my old Forster-Appelt.

O.A.L. & C.O.L. = cartridge overall length from case head (primer) to tip of bullet. This process should be easily found in any reloading book worth its salt.

Years ago, like 100 years plus, in Britain, until it was banned on most ranges, there was a practice of push seating the bullet into the bore of the gun and then inserting the case full of powder behind it. As they were using cartridges with a wad in the case neck there were not problems of the powder falling out. I forget what the method was called. As the bullet, just engaging in the lands, gave best accuracy.

But yes the idea that was suggested to you will give the optimum seat to length for your rifle.

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Originally posted by dubs22-250:
My friends dad was trying to explain a way of putting a bullet in an empty cartridge and chambering it with the bolt closed. He said that it will give you an accurate idea of how deep to seat the bullet for that exact gun action. I'm not sure if I completely understood him. Have any of you heard of a similar tactic....and if so, is it necessary??? Thanks!

Yeah I do it all the time.. what is so complicated about that?

Creates a dummy round.. keep it in the box with your seating die for that bullet weight.. and just mark it accordingly...

ya only have to do it once for each bullet weight you plan on shooting..

I think our forum team-mates answered if for you, but yes, Over All Length. And as buckshot detailed a little bit, but as I said in my original post, this method gives you OAL that seats the bullet's ogive to the lands.

My variation of this ploy is to use a dremel to cut a slit in the neck of a resized case. I squeeze the neck, and insert the bullet I am using far enough out that chambering will push the bullet into the case. I do this enough times to get at least five clean runs. (If I drop the case on extraction or have a similar misadventure, it doesn't count.)

I measure the cartridge OAL with a collimator, and take an average of the five runs. I then back off what ever I've decided for my starting place. I like this system and prefer it to using the other gages that are available because as I understand their use they typically measure from the chamber shoulder to the groves. This system measures from the bolt face to the groves.

I don't make a dummy round until I decide upon the OAL that I am going to use. Then I use a resized case without a slit and seat it to the depth necessary to obtain the desired OAL. Kudude

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Years ago, like 100 years plus, in Britain, until it was banned on most ranges...

why was that banned?

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Originally posted by delloro:

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Years ago, like 100 years plus, in Britain, until it was banned on most ranges...

why was that banned?

Good question.
My understanding is some benchrest shooters still load long and "jam seat" their bullets as they chamber when shooting.

This approach is basically sound, but if you have a push-feed rifle with a spring-loaded ejector in the bolt face, your reading may be short. The plunger pushes the case head forward of the bolt face. To avoid this, remove the bolt and push the case/bullet gauge assembly into the chamber using a piece of wood dowel, then gently push the gauge out with a cleaning rod.

I've found that it helps to make a longitudinal cut in the neck, from the opening down to the beginning of the shoulder. When necessary, tighten it up using your sizing die.

As was pointed out on internet newsgroups in 1994 before there was a world wide web by Camp Perry competitor Bart Bobbit:

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..in all tests like this I've run, best accuracy has been with the bullet jammed into the lands.

And I know other old guys who have all found this independently. But it can cause other problems:
1) The cartridges may not fit in the magazine.
2) There is an increase in pressure.
3) Extracting an unfired cartridge from the chamber may leave a bullet stuck in the chamber throat and powder spilled all over in the chamber, action, and magazine.
4) The cartridge may be too long to fit in front of a falling block breech and too hard to push into battery with the fingers.
5) Long seated ammo may not fit in standard plastic ammo boxes.

There are ways for compensating for these problems:
1) Seat as long as will fit in the magazine or shoot single shot.
2) Reduce the powder charge to reduce pressure.
3) Seat long enough to jam into the lands but not so long as to get the bullet stuck. Take a cleaning rod on hunting trips for dislodging the bullet and cleaning the chamber of spilled powder.
4) Seat just short enough for the rising block of a falling block action to get the cartridge behind and push it into battery.
5) Get a taller ammo box and put foam in the lid.

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:
Years ago, like 100 years plus, in Britain, until it was banned on most ranges, there was a practice of push seating the bullet into the bore of the gun and then inserting the case full of powder behind it. As they were using cartridges with a wad in the case neck there were not problems of the powder falling out. I forget what the method was called. As the bullet, just engaging in the lands, gave best accuracy.

But yes the idea that was suggested to you will give the optimum seat to length for your rifle.

Yes, the process was called "breech seating". I don't think that it was used with jacketed bullets though as they're too hard to properly stick in the rifling.
I shoot a lot of cast bullets and like to shoot single-shot rifles which makes the process interesting. As an experiment, I used a Ruger #1 in 30-06, one cartridge case, a powder measure set to throw my preferred charge for the experiment, and a special tool I made up to seat the bullet (Lyman #311284, a 220 gr. round nose) firmly into the rifling. The experiment did show some promise in improved accuracy.
I believe some of those famously accurate barrels made by Harry Pope may have been loaded in that manner although many were also designed to have the bullet loaded from the muzzle using a false muzzle to start the bullet.
I'm currently playing with a Browning B-78 in 30-06 with normally loaded cast bullets until I find the load that rifle prefers. Once I find that load, I'll try the breech seating method again to see if there is any real advantage.
I don't know if any of the present day Scheutzen shooters are using the breech seating method of loading from the muzzle.
I'd dearly love to be able to afford a nice falling block rifle in 32-40 and have the proper molds and breech seating tools.
It's definitely a leisurely way to shoot at the range.
Paul B.

I have used this method also.
But I recently bought a Hornady Oal gage that is prety darn cool. It was 25 bucks for the base unit and its about 4.50 or so for the modified case that works with it.
I used it to measure OAL to the lands with several bullets , and logged the results in the back of the note book I keep for my rifles.
this same tool will make it easy to check for throat erosian.
tj3006

With the Hornady OAL Gage, what do you do with a caliber that the modified case isn't made for? Example, I haven't seen a 7mm STW, or a 6mm Ackley. I would like to use one of these gages as I feel it would be more accurate, but I don't think I can.

for Tyler Kemp:
supposedly, Hornady will make modified cases to order for wildcats, etc. but they no longer provide instructions or an address to do so. their .pdf catalog says to look on the website for item #800cm but that doesn't exist either!

Hornady! What's up?