Reason being, Gibbs was saying when he was a sniper in the Marines during the Gulf war he used handloaded Lapua FMJ'd 308s, thats news to me, thought the Marine snipers have been using the 175MK since Carlos Hathcock was still knockin'em down in Vietnam. Well, thats TV for ya.
BTW, Anyone figure out what rifle the sniper was using when he took down Kate at 573 meters? Jay

Tonights NCIS sucks!!!

What's up with the dead girl fantasies?

If the Marines ever used the 175 Sierra Match King in combat, they were violating the Geneva Convention and leaving themselves wide open for international trials at the least and summary execution by the "enema" if caught. That is a hollow point and illegal under international law. The Lapua was a closed point FMJ but, I doubt they used that either. I may be off on my nomenclature but, I believe it was the M118 or 173 gr. FMJ boattail (standard military match round) made by the military arsenals that was used as the sniper round. I think the Sierra 175 MK came out long after Vietnam was over.

The Hague has ruled that match hollow points don't violate the intent of international law and can be used by combat snipers. Or were you limiting the comment to the Viet Nam era?

I think the ruling was in the late 90s or early 00s.

I wasn't unaware that had changed. I still believe that the 175 MK wasn't around in that time frame (Vietnam). I have had friends use the 190 gr. MK for hunting (in violation of Colorado's game laws) and they say that it doesn't open up. I guess it stands to reason that the Hague may have changed that coonvention in lieu of it acting like an FMJ.

quote:

Originally posted by Masterifleman:
I wasn't unaware that had changed. I still believe that the 175 MK wasn't around in that time frame (Vietnam). I have had friends use the 190 gr. MK for hunting (in violation of Colorado's game laws) and they say that it doesn't open up. I guess it stands to reason that the Hague may have changed that coonvention in lieu of it acting like an FMJ.

I was really surpised they approved it. I don't think a lot of live-animal testing was performed or they'd know that Sierra Matchkings mushroom on impact at least 95% of the time, maybe more.

There are legions of hunters who use them religiously and swear by their performance on game; it's a regular flame war here on the AR forums. I haven't tried them so I have no opinion either way.

quote:

Originally posted by Ralph Hyrlik:
Tonights NCIS sucks!!!

What's up with the dead girl fantasies?

My wife and I were rather disgusted.

BTW, I think the rifle was some flavor of Remmington with a synthetic stock and bipod.

I could be wrong, but I thought Carlos Hathcock used a Winchester M70 in 30-06? Oh, and a modified M-2 Browning.
Didn't the military go with the remington after he left Viet Nam?
Paul B.

Paul, Believe it was Jan 67 when they went to the Remington 308. Jay

The only episode of NCIS I ever saw was one that had a sniper wanna-be who was shooting recruiters through a small hole he had made in a brick wall of a building several hundred yards from the recruiting office. Mark Harmon sat in the recruiter's chair one day when the sniper took a shot at him. The sniper was either caught or killed himself; I don't remember.

This episode had a secret agenda, if you think about it-- maybe even two. One: the military uses stealth to kill people and liberals are all for openness (as they define it). What to do? Castrate the military. Two: snipers are sickos who have guns that can hit a small target at a great distance and that's not a nice thing. What to do? The liberal solution: Long-range rifles must be banned. After all, "If it saves just one life..."

quote:

Originally posted by Paul B:
I could be wrong, but I thought Carlos Hathcock used a Winchester M70 in 30-06? Oh, and a modified M-2 Browning.
Didn't the military go with the remington after he left Viet Nam?
Paul B.

And, Carlos came back to Nam in '69'. Jay

MasterRifleman
It was the Hague convention, not Geneva. What's banned are bullets designed to expand, not hollow points in general.
The Matchking is not "designed" to be a expanding bullet but a "target" bullet. Even though it expands quite nicely, esp at extended ranges/lower velocities (guess why Sierria dosn't recogmend them for hunting, yep, the military sales).
Read the book on Hathcock, in the one story (lady barber) he tells the Dr's that if the recovered bullet is a SMK-HP that it came from his rifle.

Folfs that is what is wrong with this nation. Sitting around watching a bunch crap on TV and siging some kind of treaty to use certian bullets against an enemy who will use anything including the Nukes that are being sneaked across the border! But believe me you would be surprised at what kind of bullets have brought down terriorsts including some, shall we say "tremendously rapid expansion" bullets. Can't mention his name but I'll just say a person I know well in intell for the military explained some of the black bullets to me-awsome!

LOL< Yes, back in the Hathcock days the ammo was the standard National Match stuff we "all" used, "Match Ball" that cost 17 cents per round. I almost upchucked at the NCIS description. Oh well.
LLS

Yeah all the trash and liberal garbage on TV these days are making people a bunch of robots to communist thinking. I

quote:

Originally posted by sierra2:
LOL< Yes, back in the Hathcock days the ammo was the standard National Match stuff we "all" used, "Match Ball" that cost 17 cents per round. I almost upchucked at the NCIS description. Oh well.
LLS

But that is not what was often used by Hathcock and his platoon of military snipers. According to his book, a reloading bench was assembled in the sniper barracks and loads were assembled with Sierra MK bullets.

At that time he could find no military ammo which would meet his criteria for accuracy, so he and his boys rolled their own.

Blob1

As I understand it, terrorist are not classified as enemy combatants and as such are not covered by the Hague Convention "rules".

Read here, Hague Convention article 1.

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/hague04.htm#art1

I don't have a television. What is NCIS?

lawndart

Well, it was a good ad for Lapua,anyway. And I want an instant replay on the fantasy with the short plaid skirt! The other sniper story, if you were paying attention, had a sniper shooting through a hole made by removing one brick in a wall. Can anyone explain how you can see with the scope, and still have room for the barrel, if the hole is only one brick high, and youre shooting at a downward angle??