The answer is either none of the above or all three.

It's not the method which with it's done. It's how well the method is done...........DJ

quote:

Maybe it's the roughness of the barrel and the lapping that matters mor

Woods...one might consider whether the barrel itself is the major contributor to accuracy. Personally I seriously doubt that the quality of the barrel (within reason) is the cause of poor or excellent accuracy.

I voted for hammer forged barrels but the method of installing rifling is not necessarily where the focus needs to be.

How it is threaded, chambered, crowned and fitted to the action and then how the barreled action is bedded to the stock is where the focus needs to be.

I actually think that any method has the potential to be the best and that it actually depends on the steel quality, toolmaker, technician doing the job, the work done after the rifling (stress relieving, lapping, etc.) and the finish inspection.

It's like asking which is the most beautiful woman? A Brunette, Redhead or Raven haired lass? It depends on how well made the particular example is...............DJ

quote:

Originally posted by djpaintles:
It's like asking which is the most beautiful woman? A Brunette, Redhead or Raven haired lass? It depends on how well made the particular example is...............DJ

You mean like FJOLD's avatar?

Woods,

As djpaintles says, "It's not the method which with it's done. It's how well the method is done."

Cut rifling is great, particularly because the rifler can rifle the barrel in its finished profile with no residual stress to warp the completed barrel. It's hard to do it right and the machines that do it are old. Done right, the result is glorious - and expensive.

Button-rifled can make extremely accurate barrels, but as the button is not cutting, but rather forcing steel out of its way, the stresses involved are very high. You have to button a fat barrel blank to avoid bending it in the process. That leaves you with having to machine off lots of excess steel; if stress relief isn't a primary focus here, you risk warpage as the supporting steel is removed.

Hammer-forging's greatest benefit is how good it sounds - "hammer forging." Only big manufacturers can afford the very high-priced equipment to nmake them this way. They bore a hole through a fat, short (10-inch, IIRC) steel billet, insert a mandrell that's a negative image of a rifle bore, then beat on it with hammers until the outside dimension looks like a barrel and the inside has formed around the mandrell. It's real quick - three minutes, maybe. Lots of residual stress in this process, too, so stress relief is again critical. The inside of the barrel will reflect the outside of the mandrell, so it's critical that it be in good shape.

Any of these processes will yield a good barrel, if the shortcomings of each method are considered and mitigated. If the makers skimp on stress relief (button or HF), or don't maintain their elderly equipment (cut), the result will be less than optimum. Also, it's still pot luck - some barrels shoot and some don't, regardless.

The details are harder than you might think. Marlin, for instance, button rifles its 22 rimfire barrels, but they don't do any stress relief. OTOH, for their thicker barrel models, they select blanks that had the initial hole bored more accurately, then don't remove much steel. Add to that, they button shallower grooves ("Micro-Groove"), and they end up with a pretty accurate barrel in some models, though at the expense of their sporter models.

I'd have to disagree about Ruger's lack of accuracy. Previous problems related to contracting their barrels out, and the results were, as you indicate, disappointing. They're hammer forging inhouse now, and the results are really, really good, so I assume they're considering stresses and maintaining their equipment. (My last Ruger averaged under an inch five shot groups at 100 yards. That's not an occasional group - it averaged under.)

Jaywalker

Fjod:
I totally agree with you. If you are baking a cake and use the finest ingredients, have the best cook, use the best oven, then you should wind up with a world class cake. So where is this bakery and I will start shopping there?

Cut rifled are better barrels, that doesn't insure their accuracy though. It has been said and is correct that it is the "plumbing" that matters. The installation, the truing of the action. Savages are said to have good accuracy because of perfect headspacing due to that nut they use on the barrel shank.

a lot of things go into making the rifle as accurate as it can be. Bolt being in perfect align with the bore, threads cut just right, front squared, outside ground true to the bore line and sights perfectly fitted to that as well. Everything nice and tight. then the stock of course, bedded or not, use a bedding block at the front or not, use pillars etc. etc.

I have a springfield 03 with military barrel that shoots fantastic groups (and I have never done anything to it but clean it and mount the scope, just got it that way). get a quality barrel and a top gunsmith to do the work and then put it in the stock the right way and you'll be fine.

Red

All three methods make good good barrels if they are made right. Lilja and Hart are two examples of very high quality button rifle barrels.

Cut rifle barrels at least in the modern sense are custom high quality barrels.

Hammer forged are factory barrels usually as the cost of setting up the tooling is steep as already addressed above. These are good quality factory barrels usually.

But comparing a factory barrel to a high dollar custom isn't a fair straight across comparison. Further the custom was probably fit better, so it really gets difficult to compare on a even field.

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But comparing a factory barrel to a high dollar custom isn't a fair straight across comparison

I agree there!

Do the factories even lap their barrels? I doubt it...too time and labor intensive. Based on the bore scope video circulated earlier (from Lilja's web site I think) the factory hammer forged barrel is not lapped at all. Hand lapping could correct their biggest weakness...interior roughness.

you can also argue for a great chamber job and threading job and crown,...but if the barrel itself wasn't all that straight to begin with,..the precision of fitting only reduces is deficits. Most mass produced american and other factory barrels are far from straight and bore concentric and many were also "straightened" at the factory. A barrel made from a less than perfectly straight peice of steel,..even if it was straightened prior to boring etc, will not be as accurate. All the manufacturing stresses imparted before fitting a blank, will affect accuracy. A barrel blank that was forcibly bent to obtain a straight billet, will have addedd stresses from that work. This is only one reason why match grade barrels shoot better. They were STRAIGHT before boring, and most are stress releived during their production processes as well.

Factories, owned by companies, and run by beancounters, will always be straightening barrels to acheive a higher degree of efficiency and reducing waste and therefore increasing profits. It is a crap shoot with a fcatory barrel unless it is purchased from one of the higher end forms who uses higher quality components and yes, also uses far tighter and more concentric tolerances. You will however ALWAYS pay for this if you don't wish to roll the dice on a mid range production rifle.

My .002"

I own or have owned several custom barrels by kreiger,pac-nor,schneider,hart,gaillard,mclennon and h-s precision that are button rifled or cut rifled and I have not noticed any real difference in accuracy.

CDH:

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Do the factories even lap their barrels? I doubt it...too time and labor intensive.

I agree, and I don't think it would be particularly effective in any case. I believe hammer-forged bores tend to be a little harder than other bores as they're "work-hardened" in the process, so lapping would take more actions to accomplish the same thing.

Also, from a manufacturing standpoint it would make little sense. The reason a HF bore is rough is that the mandrell is rough; it should be easier to clean up the cause than the result.

Nevertheless, there are some references to "honing" a HF barrel instead of lapping, which is a power-driven process to accomplish smoothing. I don't believe the big US makers do this, but I could be mistaken.

Lest anyone think a work-hardened bore is an unmixed blessing, know that Boots Obermeyer doesn't think so.

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Since the blank is red hot, a scale like substance forms on the inner surface. This results in impurities being hammered into the surface of the bore. After a number of rounds shot through the barrel, the impurities pop out and appear as pits.

He didn't comment on Cold Hammer Forging, so that may be why we don't see many pits these days. Additionally, he found that toward the end of its life, a hammer-forged barrel was significantly softer than a cut-rifled barrel, which enabled him to remove steel easily by lapping to recondition the barrel.

Obermeyer is a proponent of the cut rifling method, but, even so, his observations on the extended life of a cut-rifled barrel are borne out by other makers. Cut rifling costs more, but it lasts longer. When I wear out my factory M70 Classic 6.5X55 barrel, I think I'll replace it with a cut-rifled barrel.

Jaywalker

The 2 most accurate rifles in my collection (which includes barrels by Kreiger, Shilen, Douglas, Hart etc.) are Hammer-Forged factory rifle barrels and a 3rd comes close.
The barrels on my TRG-22 and TRG-42 are hammer-forged but do receive extra attention, so in my experience a Hammer forged barrel can be just as accurate as other custom made barrels.........DJ

the two most accurate rifles i own are an fn spr-a1 and a steyr sbs. i know the steyr has a hammmer forged barrel, but i don't know about the fn. i guess part of the price tag with a steyr is proper fitting. man does that thing shoot. the fn is chrome lined and i would be curious to know how the rifling is cut.

I have found my stainless flued remington barrels which are hammer forged, to be right on the heels of my match tubes. A good job, is a good job.

The most accurate factory rifle I own is a Remington R5 milspec. ( maybe even my most accurate rifle including the customs ). This is a cut rifle barrel. Its also about .90 inches or so at the muzzel so light it isn't.

How are they cutting these barrels? Are they using the old Pratt and Whitney machines with special tooling, or is there some newer process?

Another barrel I would like to ask if anyone has is the polygon barrels, has anybody built a bolt action rifle on one of these? I would assume this is a broaching operation of some sort, anybody know about these? Supposed to last longer and give high velocities, but how accurate are they?

schromf,

As far as I've been able to determine, the cut-rifling makers are still using the P&W machines from 1939. These cut one groove at a time. There may be some non-P&W machines out there that cut more than one groove at a time. Or the box that holds the cutter in a P&W machine may be able to hold a multi-head cutter - don't know.

It would seem to me that polygonal rifling would be more easily accomplished by hammer-forging than broaching - just change the mandrell to a polygon instead of a negative-groove shape. That's just a guess, and I'm entirely willing to be wrong about it.

Jaywalker

My most accurate rifle, a CZ 550 Varmint, is hammer forged.

quote:

Another barrel I would like to ask if anyone has is the polygon barrels, has anybody built a bolt action rifle on one of these? I would assume this is a broaching operation of some sort, anybody know about these? Supposed to last longer and give high velocities, but how accurate are they?

Woodie, I know you post here on occasion please give us some information on your barrels.

As the shooter is more important than the gun, the man running the tools is more important than the method. Any method will work, and DJPaintles said, or thereabouts. If in doubt buy a scattergun and be done with it.