I have read my entire reloading life that the boat tail bullet form is "better" at long ranges...way beyond what most of us should be shooting at anything, anyhow... but flat based spitzers are "easier to make shoot accurately".

If true, I can't figure out why this should be. The Federal .308 match loads that have been the standard for years are BT. Truth or Urban Legend?

I have some Combined Technology 115 gr. for my 257 Roberts, and some Hornady SST 117 gr. bullets, both boat tail, and they haven't shown a lot of potential in the small group department.(yet) Best accuracy is with heavy Speer and Sierra spitzers, and Nosler Partitions (which is sort of a BT)

My 100 gr. spitzers just won't get with the program...nothing incredibly wrong, just not as precise as I wish.

What do you think? Should I give up on the BTs, and concentrate on the flat based spitzer bullets, which should be good enough for my self-imposed limit of 300 yards?

Thanks

Boat tail bullets don't really offer much benefit until after 300 yards.....I'd use flat base for accuracy.....if that's your chief goal.

flat base work better for me in the accuracy department.

Don't mix bullet configuration and bullet weight, especially with the 257R. I would suggest that you find the bullet weight that your rifle shoots well, first. Then play with bullet configuration. In many cases, the bullets are limited ie. you buy both weight and configuration. MY 257R is very picky about bullet weight. It won't shoot 120 gr. NPs worth a damn, but will shoot 117 gr. Hornadys quite well. Having said that, target quality bullets are all flat base. Look at Sierra MKs, Nosler match bullets etc. However, you didn't buy your 257R to target shoot with (at least I don't think so!). Presumably you bought it to hunt with.
Peter.

Tough to say. My Bob shoots exceedingly well - especially so when I converted over to H4350 for ALL my Bob loads.

H4350 made all the difference in the world for me.

For instance: At the range just last weekend I pumped 12 rounds into a 1.25" group. On it's own, that 1.25" group isn't much to talk about but...the group consisted of the following:

3x Nosler 110 AB's
3x Sierra 100 SGK's
3x Sierra 117 SGK's
3x Nosler 100 Partitions.

All 12 rounds clustered in a lovely group of 1.25". What I took away from that little lesson was that regardless of which load I grab to go hunting with, they all group near enough to not make a darn bit of difference to the critter downrange.

So...what powder are you using?

As I was told by a tech at Sierra many years ago, a flat based bullet leaves the muzzle with the gas pushing on the base evenly, where there is lower risk for asymmetric gas blow by upon exiting, which would increase accuracy. A boat tail must leave the muzzle where the bearing surface is symmetric. If it is slightly canted, gas will push on one end of the boat tail upon exiting.

However, my best groups ever have been with ballistic tips (solid based boat tails), Berger VLDs, and Barnes boat tails.

The best groups I ever had with flat based bullets was Speer 150 in my 270 with H4831 before SC was available, and the 180 in 30.06 with IMR4064.

I think boat tails load easier as they sit in the mouth without my help. Thats why I like them, and for nothing else.

Downrange B.C. means nothing to me I hunt @ 100 yrds most days.

.

Boat tails sell better 'cause most shooters heard that the Germans developed them during WW1 for long range shooting. For most hunting ranges flat base are more accurate for the reason mentioned above.

Well yes, the boat tail does MINIMIZE the gyrations the bullet goes through when it's speed transitions to subsonic flight speeds.

A Federal match load with a 168 grain bullet out of a 26 in. barrel goes sub-sonic at somewhere between 750 yards and 1100 yards. This depends on mostly on altitude but several factors enter into what the transition range is. It's about 750+ at sea level and around 1100+ about 5500 feet.

The flat base as I remember it goes sub-sonic about 400+ yards at sea level so the boat tail does help with the ballistic coefficient

Hope this helps.

Roi

For hunting, shoot the bullet that is the most accurate, and that is constructed properly, for the game you are hunting.

If you are target shooting past 600 yards, use a boattail bullet for sure.

For the most part I find that Flat base bullets give better repeatability than the Boat tails, with one exception; In my 257 roberts, Ruger 77 the Sierra 90 gr HPBT is fantastic, bar non. roger

quote:

Boat tail bullets don't really offer much benefit until after 300 yards

vapo - i am not arguing because my experience is limited, but i don't see how a bullet would know it has traveled 300 yards. i would think that it has more to do with velocity or wind resistance - what i mean is that it would seem that after a bullet has traveled down to a certain velocity, the boattail helps. for a 300 WinMag this might be 300 yards, but for something with less muzzle velocity (say, a .300 savage) wouldn't the bene fits of a boattail show up after less yardage?

once again, i don't know, so i am not flaming - just looking for somethng i can wrap my head around.

510wells has the good oil. Any benefit from a BT happens post sub-sonic.

quote:

Having said that, target quality bullets are all flat base. Look at Sierra MKs, Nosler match bullets etc.

I don't cliam to know whether boat tails are, in general, more accurate. But I do know that the statement quoted above is inaccurate.

From the Sierra website:

"For serious rifle competition, you'll be in championship company with MatchKing® bullets. The hollow point boat tail design provides that extra margin of ballistic performance match shooters need to fire at long ranges under adverse conditions."

From the Nosler website:

Nosler Custom Competition™
The Finest Match Bullets Today
....Pronounced boat tail provides excellent flight characteristics over a range of velocities.

olarmy, you beat me to it! I was absolutely wrong with the above statement WRT MATCH BULLETS. I looked at my SMKs and Nosler Custom Competition bullets in 69, 80, 150, 155 and 168 and they are all boattails! Having said that, all my BENCHREST bullets (22 and 6mm caliber) are flat base. So, I apologise for (and retract) the above statement that you quoted, and would like to replace it with "for ultimate accuracy, flat base bullets are generally regarded as the more accurate".
Mea culpa!
I still think that my approach to load development is "let's try a different bullet weight" rather than "Hmm maybe I should switch to a boattail".
CC has probably got more information than he bargained for! He has stated a self imposed limit of 300 yards and is shooting a 257R. So, back to the question: "No, I don't think in a non BR rifle, that the bullet configuration (FB or BT) will make a noticeable difference". Having said that, one is limited by what the manufacturer provides, and this, as has been said, is mostly marketing and customer perception/demand.
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by C.C.:
I have read my entire reloading life that the boat tail bullet form is "better" at long ranges...

Hey C.C., That is true from my experience.

quote:

... but flat based spitzers are "easier to make shoot accurately".

That is absolutely, positively, 100% "maybe".

quote:

Best accuracy(for C.C.) is with heavy Speer and Sierra spitzers, and Nosler Partitions (which is sort of a BT). My 100 gr. spitzers just won't get with the program...nothing incredibly wrong, just not as precise as I wish. What do you think?

You discovered that different rifles like different kinds of Bullets. There is no guaranteed Rule about which Bullet design will always provide the best accuracy in all rifles.

quote:

Should I give up on the BTs, and concentrate on the flat based spitzer bullets, which should be good enough for my self-imposed limit of 300 yards?

As long as you are using a well designed Hunting Bullet, with enough weight to get an Exit the vast majority of the time on shoulder-to-shoulder shots, and if the Accuracy meets your requirements, then you are ready to go do some Killing.
-----

I don't need any stinkin' PCBs(Politically Correct Bullets). Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
As long as you are using a well designed Hunting Bullet, with enough weight to get an Exit the vast majority of the time on shoulder-to-shoulder shots, and if the Accuracy meets your requirements, then you are ready to go do some Killing.

This is as good as it gets.....well said!

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
I think boat tails load easier as they sit in the mouth without my help. Thats why I like them, and for nothing else.

Downrange B.C. means nothing to me I hunt @ 100 yrds most days.

.

Under 250 to 300 forget BT bullets. If they were good for the short ranges then the BR guys would use them!

In my point blank guns FB is what I use in LR 1K Competition Rifles the BT's are used. The real issue is that 98% of the people do not have the means or the equipment to tell much difference. Some people prefer to feel better emotionally about using BT pills for 100 - 200yd shooting just because they look sexy!!lol

quote:

I think boat tails load easier as they sit in the mouth without my help. Thats why I like them, and for nothing else.

That's why many people really use them! If I could get flat base bullets to load as easy I also would "pass" on BTs! As I think in a hunting bullet the flat base has better core and weight retention.

At long range the boat tail by making the bullet longer for its given weight gives a flatter trajectory.

Thus we British developed a "Streamline" loading for 303 long range rifle shooting that was, actually, just a standard 174 grain 303 formed with a boat tail.

Later this was issued as Mark 8 ammunition for use in the Vickers machine gun. Where jut by having a boat tail and an extra 100fps velocity it increased the maximum range from 2,500 yards to 2,800 yards I believe.

BossHoss, actually in the past few years, boat tail bullets have made a re-appearance in 100,200 and 300 yd BR. Don Gentner shot very well with his BT bullets and last year both Lester Bruno and Tony Boyer had great results with them. As you know, nothing remains static in BR. What was the "hot set-up" last year is passe this year. Moly comes and goes, boat tails, cut rifling, external adj. scopes, wooden stocks, gain twist barrels etc. About the only thing that shows real staying power is the venerable 6PPC. Aside from a scant few shooters, it is the case of choice in that group shooting game.

IMO, the reason for the better accuracy with the flat based bullet, especially in the lighter weights, is the greater bearing surface in contact with the rifling.
In the greater weights with the longer bullets, which one is more apt to be shooting at distance, the bullet would be less apt to act in a rocking chair manner going down the bore.
If one were to look at a bullet with a long ogive and a well tapered boat tail, it would leave little surface to bite into the lands.

This conjecture has no scientific support but rather is the wisdom gained from the depths of a few pints consumed amonst friends.

quote:

Originally posted by stillbeeman:
...This conjecture has no scientific support but rather is the wisdom gained from the depths of a few pints consumed amonst friends.

It is always difficult to disagree with W(BG)V White Lightnin' enhanced logic.

I seem to be getting pretty good accuracy with boat tails lately.
As Ted mentioned, I sure like the way they sit on top of the case for using the seating die. Makes seating much more easier....

For my purpose of working up loads for hunting out to not much further than 200 yards, the flat base always are quite a bit more accurate with the same powder charge than boat tails. I have tried to get 165 gr. Hornady boat tails that were given to me to shoot in 3 different 30-06's and one 300 Savage. The Sierra pro hunter, speer hot core, and Remington core-lokt, hornady FB Spitzer will out shoot them big time. In various 7mm rifles the boat tails fail again against FB and same in .243. Most boat tails have been given to me and I see why.

The exception is the Nosler BT which to me is sort of a semi boat tail, much less taper than a true boat tail. I generally get good accuracy out of them and Hornady .224 cal. V-Max in any rifle.

For my 257R, the Sierra 117 gr. pro hunter flat base bullet with a good charge of RL-19 is a good deer killer. I have also done well with the 100 gr. Hornady Interlock flat base with RL-19, W-760/H-414 and I will be giving the H-4350 a try as recommended above. Merg

I came across some cheap bullets that were bot tailed but with a blunt soft point. I chose the 180gr ones over the 150grs because I thought the heavier ones had more bearing surface. Then I discovered I could use the 'tail' to carry lube so that's what I do. These seem to be shooting real well so far and are not fouling the bore at all. And they were cheap! Cheap and accurate in a rust pitted bore! My point is that I can use the tail as a sort of lube groove.

I have found that Nosler semi-boat tails are accurate too! (55gr .224)

CC

I have a sako 243 that prefers sierra flat bases (prohunters). It also likes the 85 grain partition (also flat base). I tried a sirroco 90 grain (I think) boat tail and accuracy was poor.
I believe most rifles have a preference as to boat tail or flat base and at 300 yards the animal won't know the difference.

I think ted thorn hit the nail on the head early in this thread. Most of us shoot game at 100 yards (+/- 30yd). Some will be reaching out to 300 yards, but, if I read all the tables and manuals correctly, 300 yards is still inside the crossover point at which the boat tail begins to move ahead of the flat base. I will submit that the boattail is better if you are going to be shooting competition at ranges beyond 500 yards, but, if you expect to be a "normal" hunter your shots will be much shorter. The longest game shot I've taken was lasered at 354 yards, and I'd estimate the average remains about 100 yards. Short, practical, ranges make the case for flat base bullets, although HPBTs and SPBTs are certainly sexy looking bullets.
LLS

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:
Then I discovered I could use the 'tail' to carry lube so that's what I do. a sort of lube groove.

How do you do that? roger

I dip the boat tail portion of the bullet into molten waxy-lube, drip off the drop that forms on the base then simply seat bullet as normal. The excess gets cut off by the mouth. My bore stays in the lubed state so theoretically, it is ready for the first shot. But just for good measure, the last time I used it I lubed the ogive of the first bullet. With a bit of luck, I shall be making my way to the range tomorrow, then I will be able to say how well it really does work!

quote:

I dip the boat tail portion of the bullet into molten waxy-lube,

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

I dip the boat tail portion of the bullet into molten waxy-lube,

ditto

Boat tails on a short light bullet in a rifle with a long throat make for a very long jump to engage the rifling.

Urban Legend, you will have to change the powder charge and bullet seating depth. Both can be very accurate. VLD bullets are for long range. VLD's most times will need a different twist in the barrel to work well. Remember its not the weight of the bullet, its the bullets length when it comes to picking a twist for a custom barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

I dip the boat tail portion of the bullet into molten waxy-lube,

ditto

??? OK. There must be a logic for your 'disapproval'?

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

I dip the boat tail portion of the bullet into molten waxy-lube,

ditto

??? OK. There must be a logic for your 'disapproval'?

+2 303; I would suspect that as you shoot you will be depositing enough lube into the throat and barrel to give you a fouling problem. The lube itself will aid in collecting carbon and turn into carbon deposited in the throat area, after it's cooked in really good you may have a hard time removing it.

Actually no, this does not happen. The bore stays shiny clean! So does the chamber/neck/throat area. That's the reason I want to do this with cast bullets too. I discovered how clean a lubed bullet keeps the bore when using a similar loading method with my hornet. Wax wads have been used before and apparently, bore life is greatly extended. By dipping the bullet base into waxy-lube, I am in fact creating a wax wad. The waxy-lube is made up of candle wax, alox and STP. It sets as hard as candle wax but a bit stronger. But we digress. More to topic, I make use of the boat tail to carry a wax wad/lube ring, making the boat tail good for me. I have not tested this bullet, with or without the wax wad at longer ranges. This particular bullet doesn't have the long boat tail that match bullets have and is a cheap utility bullet so would not be representative of the concept, anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:
Actually no, this does not happen. The bore stays shiny clean! So does the chamber/neck/throat area. That's the reason I want to do this with cast bullets too. I discovered how clean a lubed bullet keeps the bore when using a similar loading method with my hornet. Wax wads have been used before and apparently, bore life is greatly extended. By dipping the bullet base into waxy-lube, I am in fact creating a wax wad. The waxy-lube is made up of candle wax, alox and STP. It sets as hard as candle wax but a bit stronger. But we digress. More to topic, I make use of the boat tail to carry a wax wad/lube ring, making the boat tail good for me. I have not tested this bullet, with or without the wax wad at longer ranges. This particular bullet doesn't have the long boat tail that match bullets have and is a cheap utility bullet so would not be representative of the concept, anyway.

Interesting. Are these tests performed with large quanities of rounds being fired without cleaning? What happens after long term storage if this lube isn't cleaned out? If it is leaving the bore shiny then every consecutive shot is depositing some lube into the bore, if it doesn't build up it has to be converting to something, carbon I would say from combustion heat and friction heat, then being forced out of the bore by gases and the bullet. If it smokes any, some of it is being converted or broken down to basic elements.

I use Hornady BTSP 165 grain with 55 grains IMR 4350 reason for is it reloads easyier and when I do get to reaching out with it i won't have to change a thing.
My 24 inch 30-06 should shoot pretty straight up to 250 yards or so. Zeroed about 1.8 to 2 inches high at a 100. A 100 yard shot at deer with this has been a cake walk, I am sure you all will agree.

How much volocity loss and yardage covered before the BT's pay off for the 06?

quote:

So...what powder are you using?

My most accurate loads are with H4831 SC, but H4350 looks promising. Your Mannlicher shoots like a house afire!

quote:

Interesting. Are these tests performed with large quanities of rounds being fired without cleaning?

swheeler, I started a new thread "Waxy-lube wad with Jacketed Bullets" if you and anyone else would care to join me.