Which guide do you use for reloading 7X57? My most current ones seem way too conservative for this chambering with heavier bullets. Thank you.

Probably none. SAAMI specs for the 7x57 are 51000 psi. All the reloading guides are going to adhere to that.

Conversely, a 280 Remington is 60000.

Does anybody think that a remington 700 or win mod 70 or ruger 77 in 7x57 can't be loaded to higher than 51000.

You should expect velocity right btween 7mm-08 and 280 remington for a given bullet weight. Note case capacity of the 7x57 is right between the two.

As an example, I would take a powder like varget or h4350 and split the difference between the 7mm-08 and 280 remington on minimum loads and work up. I would split the difference on max loads and considered that max.

I would just work up slowly and when you achieve decent velocity and decent accuracy call it good.

The reason the loads seem conservative is because of all those old Mausers out there chambered in 7x57. The were designed to hold much lower pressures than modern bolt actions. You run into the same issue with 30-06 loads.

Having said that, unless you are an experienced handloader and shooter using a reliable chronograph and are well versed in interpreting pressure signs, don't even try to get max performance out of your 7x57. The line between optimum and unsafe can be easily exceeded.

The right answer is always to start low and work up slowly, with a chronograph, and carefully watch for pressure signs. The chrono is important because uncharteristically high velocity is also a sign of high pressure. Sometimes I see that before the brass shows anything.

I load to find best accuracy with acceptable velocity, and I almost always find best accuracy below max velocities. That last 50 or 100 fps usually comes at a loss of accuracy, is often a LOT higher pressure, and rarely does 100 fps make any difference on effective range or performance on game.

Something else to remember. Various types of rifles have different max pressure levels. I wasn't bothered when my custom actioned, tight chambered BR rifle would ocassionally have a "tick" at the top of bolt lift. The action and barrel tennon in that rifle were massive. The same tick is not acceptable in a modern bolt action hunting rifle, and is dangerous in an older bolt action. If I ever experienced any stiffness in extraction on my double rifle, it would also be dangerous and a sign of a major screw up on my part.

I get the safety concerns of publishers as there are still lots of shooters plinking with original military rifles. But, their max loads get slower and slower. My rifle is modern and will handle higher pressures, etc. I have been keeping my eye on the primer shape for signs of distress especially when the groups started to walk at higher pressures, I checked every case before the next one was fired. All cases came right out of the barrel easily, no signs of distress. I don't intend to develop my next loads using a chrony. I think I'll be fine using one of my older Lee guides from around the year 2000 and starting about 2/3 up the range. It's the most realistic out of all my books for a modern firearm. Speaking of LEE guides, can you believe max loads varied from 40-51 grains with velocities from 2200 fps to over 2500 for Hodgdon-4831 with jacketed 175 grain bullets over a period of 35+ years? The oldest from 1963 or so showed a max powder charge of like 51 grains at 2500+ fps. Ennyhoo, even though I stayed home yesterday and today because of a cold, I believe I've gone as far as I can with the load for this rifle. Time to move on to the next 7X57 another single shot. Thanks for the comments.

quote:

You should expect velocity right btween 7mm-08 and 280 remington for a given bullet weight. Note case capacity of the 7x57 is right between the two.

You are getting good advice so far!!!
Most often I use Richard Lee's Modern Reloading second edition. It seems he uses almost everyone else's data. In this case I would use in addition the Speer manual # 14.
If you are looking to use the heavy bullets I suggest using no powder with a faster burning rate than IMR4064. Also seat the bullets as far out as your rifling will allow you, providing your throat depth isn't excessive.
Select a loading from one of the manuals. Reduce it perhaps by 5% and start to work up observing your pressure signs as you go.
The availability of a chronograph would definitely give you an added advantage but you can still work safely without one.
Keep in mind that the brass case in a (sound) rifle is much like a fuse in an electrical circuit. Unless the safe loader makes a grave error that case offers abundant protection unless it is faulty to start with. roger

Ken Waters' Pet Loads. He will take you up and back; a classic but still good.

FYI Nosler's #4 Manual has modern loads with

RL 19 47-51 grn 2600 to 2830 fps w/150 grn bullets

IMR 4350 44-48 grns 2430 to 2730 fps 150 grn


Ought to do all that needs doin

Ken Waters Pet Loads is probably the best there is, I would not be without it. It also is the only manual that I have found that the velocities given are very consistant with what I get over my chronograph. Too bad it is getting dated as far as many of the newer powders go, but I use many of the good "old" powders for most of my guns. I also refer back to many of my old manuals from the 60-70's, they are much less liability conscious and give you good info to compare with the new books before starting a new load.

Darn. I had volume 1 and 2 and sold 'em on here a little over a month ago.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Ken Waters' Pet Loads. He will take you up and back; a classic but still good.

lee440: Good ol' powders are what interests me the most. Of all the manuals I've read lately, all but the Vihta Vuori's had the H-4831 listed on many calibers and bullet weights. There were other Hodgdon's and the usual IMR's mentioned frequently as well. But, this one is my first choice because my best shooter (.270-1/4MOA) uses H-4831. Would you mind throwing me a bone and tell me what the max load is for a 175 grain jacketed bullet in your Ken Waters Pet Loads manual using this powder? I'm done with my 175 grain load pretty much. But, it would be interesting to see how my final load stacks up. Might even pick up the another copy for myself. In the meantime, I'll go with my gut on the next load. Thanks to all again for the input.

quote:

Originally posted by lee440:
Ken Waters Pet Loads is probably the best there is, I would not be without it. It also is the only manual that I have found that the velocities given are very consistant with what I get over my chronograph. Too bad it is getting dated as far as many of the newer powders go, but I use many of the good "old" powders for most of my guns. I also refer back to many of my old manuals from the 60-70's, they are much less liability conscious and give you good info to compare with the new books before starting a new load.

Thanks for the input Mike. That load data is good to know since the IMR-4350 and H-4831 can do the same work using nearly the same charge and I just might be loading 150's.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike_Dettorre:

IMR 4350 44-48 grns 2430 to 2730 fps 150 grn


Ought to do all that needs doin

You can get Nosler and Hodgdon data on a smart phone.
I think Alliant also.
You can also get old Handloader/Rifle articles.
Or, ask one of us.

Barsness wrote an article in Handloader # 231 titled "Handloads that work".
He believes H 4350 is more termperature tolorant than Imr 4350.
In the 7x57
140g ---47-50g(H4350)---2800-2900fps/22 in barrel
175g----48g(RL 22)---2500fps/22 in barrel

I just took another look at my best Lee book here at the office. See my comparison IN CAPS BELOW using the 2000 reprint version MODERN RELOADING data for similar loads.
Originally posted by Texas Killartist:
Barsness wrote an article in Handloader # 231 titled "Handloads that work".
He believes H 4350 is more termperature tolorant than Imr 4350.
In the 7x57
140g ---47-50g(H4350)---2800-2900fps/22 in barrel NO DATA 139 GRAIN = 46.8 - 52 MAX AT 2807
175g----48g(RL 22)---2500fps/22 in barrel[/QUOTE] NO DATA RL22. H4831 = 44.1 - 48 MAX AT 2443.
Not exactly apples to apples. More like green apples to red ones. Certainly enough to confirm that this LEE guide is in the ballpark. It's a keeper.
BTW The sweet spot on my 175's looks to be 48.5 grains of H4831.

You should get another set of Ken Waters' Pet Loads. I tend not to care about "new" powders so use the old ones most of the time. Funny, too, I use volume 2 about 10 times more than volume 1.

Quickload or Load From a Disc will both give you some good guestimates with whatever bullet and powder you have at hand.

For years I have heard people complain about how newer loads are milder than older loads, and how that is a result of an over concern about liability. No doubt liability concerns are more now than they were 50 years ago, but I think the biggest reason for milder loads has to do with the improved accuracy and availablily of pressure reading equipment as well as the now widespread availability of decent chronographs. In the old days, we did a lot more guessing and hoping than we do now.

My "go to" manuals are Lyman, and Hornady. Then I check the data from the powder manufacturer, and get a sense of a range that should work. It's interesting to take note of the variations between manuals, but I can usually find a good common range for powder charges, and seating depth, to use for load development.

dpcd Volume 2 aye? I may have jumped the gun when I decided to sell my Waters'. Actually, I was so overwhelmed by the infinite details in the introduction (way over my head), I never went forward to look at the load recommendations. Go figure.

When I was 14 my parents gave me a Sierra Manual and an RCBS Jr. press. I read That manual from page 1 and have considered it the gospel. Still do, now I'm 53 years old and I have Volume V.
I find it to be an excellent and reliable source.
I do find that some of my best fast and accurate loads are at the top end of the Sierra Manual and sometimes a grain or so past but again it is a fantastic source of information that I rely heavily on.
Sierra shows that IMR and H 4350 cover the 7x57 very well with 140's, 150's, and 160 grain bullets. Varget and Reloader 15 is another good choice.

I've reloaded and hunted deer with the 7x57 for forty years. In order to get the performance that the cartridge is capable of out of a modern rifle it is necessary to arrive at your own maximum loads for your own rifle. If you desire to use a reloading manual to get your maximum loads out of, the 7x57 is not for you. You would be better off to go to the 7/08 or .270.
Should you desire to further your own handloading knowledge and learn how to develop your own loads there are several sources of this information. Although I would not consider some self-appointed internet expert as one of them, unless he comes with good credentials.
Bob Hagel's book "Guns, Loads, & Hunting Tips" long out of print, but still available on Amazon, is IMHO the best, most complete source available.

Yeah, volume 2 is for cartridges above 30 caliber. What Swamp said is right, for most loading manuals and 7mm, but Ken Waters explores all loads, and then tells you not to use some of them. Still a good place to start.

PS. If you do decide to develop your own loads in your rifle I would strongly suggest doing so only with single based powders until considerable knowledge has been gained in detecting the beginning of high pressure signs. Double-based powders can go from mild to wild very quickly. Having tried most load combinations in my own rifle, H-4350 has most frequently been the best single powder with 140-160 gr. bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by swampshooter:
I've reloaded and hunted deer with the 7x57 for forty years. In order to get the performance that the cartridge is capable of out of a modern rifle it is necessary to arrive at your own maximum loads for your own rifle. If you desire to use a reloading manual to get your maximum loads out of, the 7x57 is not for you. You would be better off to go to the 7/08 or .270.
Should you desire to further your own handloading knowledge and learn how to develop your own loads there are several sources of this information. Although I would not consider some self-appointed internet expert as one of them, unless he comes with good credentials.
Bob Hagel's book "Guns, Loads, & Hunting Tips" long out of print, but still available on Amazon, is IMHO the best, most complete source available.

Well put. When you decide to get a max. load you are not going to get it from any publication. You can prudently use a manuals info as a starter but will have to "develop" your individual rifles safe max.

The 4350s and 4831s are excellent choices. roger

I appreciate all the tips and recommendations. Although it is impossible to take everyone's advice, I will say that in addition to manual recommendations, it was all your load recommendations and do's and don'ts that either painted a picture in my mind or reaffirmed my inclinations on how to achieve a safe and "best' load. For that I thank every one of you for your contribution. I got something out of each post. I'd be glad to post the particulars on the final load if anyone is interested.
Soon time to move on to the next rifle.
See my WTB in the classifieds for more bullets.

Happy hunting! CB

If you have some on hand, try either H414 or W760 in that little Mauser case.

My most recent favorite is 46 gns W-760 and a 145 gn Speer BTSP @ 2880 fs.

Still working on a good 160 grain load.

A lot of people seem to find that with some of the slower burning stick powders like 4831 or Rlr 22 that work well with heavier bullets, you will Generally run out of case capacity before you hit max pressure.

I did a lot of research before deciding where to start with mine and found tremendous variations among manuals. And since it is one of the oldest sporting cartridges in existence there are a lot of reasons for such variations.

I have always liked the Speer manuals because I have found that their data is typically right in line with where I usually find max pressures for a good number of different rifles. I also like my Hornady, Sierra and Lyman Manuals a lot. But it is always interesting to compare them. Especially from different printings over the years.

Wstrnhuntr: According to a bullet chart I've been using, the 160 bullet is shorter by .09" when compared to the 175. However, the throat on this chamber is shorter by around .2". So, obviously the case capacity gained by the shorter bullet is lost and then some. The micrometer will probably back up the bullet lengths. Both partitions should have the same ogive shape. The plan is to take a little time and begin with a charge small enough to create an audible air space and then increase the charge until I get to 0 air space and see how that charge relates to the book range then go forward. It may be necessary to compress the powder a slight bit and maybe steal a bit from the intended .050" bullet jump. Speed seems more benficial than bullet jump. One step at a time. Thanks.

I like the Lyman reloading manual best, covers many powders and bullets for each cartridge. I like Hodgdon's online data too and refer to it often.

I did take a look at the Hodgdon data. The site is very well laid out and I really like the burn rate chart. For the 7X57 loads, they also seem reserved on their loads and velocity just like the manual I have at home. I'll compare their recommendations to my best load on my .270 load later. Thanks for the input.

I'm also going to suggest the "NRA Handloading Guide" by Robert (?) Davis. It's a very comprehensive technical guide to most phases of reloading. This guide dates from the 1970's but copies come up for sale on ebay quite often.
Then there's the Powley Computer, which refers to IMR powders and bases each load on the specific case capacity, in H2O, of the bullet and case used. It cares not of M93 Mausers or lawyers. I've been reloading 7x57 for long enough now to interpolate, i.e. if it calls for a powder between, say, IMR 4320 and IMR 4350, I can confidently use H414/WW760.
And finally there are the old buff colored "IMR Reloading Guides", which give pressures using IMR powders.

My suggestion is to get all of the various manuals, new/old/whatever and compare them then start working with the loads you get the best ACCURACY from. Over the years I have found out that many rifles actually perform better at less than maximum loadings.

The best rifle/scope/bullet/powder combination in the world is no good if the rifle does not shoot accurately. I know that sounds juvenile but I have seen several folks that worked long and hard trying to get a particular load to give the performance they wanted, only to have to back down from maximum to get the kind of performance the rifle was capable of. Just my opinion.

Crazyhorseconsulting. That is in many ways what I've done, almost to a T as what you mentioned. I have also poured through several boxes (3 liquor size) of manuals.

To expand a bit more....., I had talked with others who shot nearly identical loads in the same caliber and some who shot slightly lighter loads in the same caliber, all using the exact same powder. Case in point #1, there is no book better than the one you write (yourself) based on actual experiences from successful shooters who use the same powder you got and in short apples to apples. If a book backs up what you have learned, then it will give you a realistic range to "ponder" the next time.
Case in point #2.
I'm also aware that the next load may not fall in the same range of my guide because the game has now changed because the gun has changed along with barrel length and twist and throat depth and manufacturer. So, even though I feel I have a little jump on the next one, there are a whole new set of variables because it's a whole other gun.
Reloading is not standardized, it is an art of sorts and as you already know, one size does not fit all. Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by custombolt:
dpcd Volume 2 aye? I may have jumped the gun when I decided to sell my Waters'. Actually, I was so overwhelmed by the infinite details in the introduction (way over my head), I never went forward to look at the load recommendations. Go figure.

The little details that overwhelmed you are the things that keep you safe when trying to push the envelop when loading. You have to understand that the powder in the book is not the same as the powder on your bench. In fact none of the components are the same.
Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Over the years I have found out that many rifles actually perform better at less than maximum loadings

This is exactly correct. I have been seriously handloading for 20 years. I have gone through dozens of rifles, mostly bolt actions, in dozens of chamberings, custom and factory, for both hunting and competiton shooting. I have been using chronographs for the last 17 years for all load development. I have found some general concepts that seem to hold true:

1. Best accuracy is usually obtained at less than maximum velocity. Often as much as 100 fps less.....

2. A sporter weight barrel--up to a #3 or #4, depending on caliber--that will [i]consistently[i] shoot [i]hunting[i] bullets into .75 MOA or better is about as good as it gets. If that seems like a low bar, then I challenge anyone to shoot four consecutive 3-shot groups and not have one exceed 3/4" at 100 yds. BTW, such a rifle will ocassionally shoot 1/2" or even 1/4" groups, but an ocassional 1/4" group does not make a rifle a 1/4" rifle. A couple years ago I was fussing with a 338 Winny. I wasn't able to get my consistent 3/4 moa. I was about to change the barrel when I looked at my records and realized I had shot four consecutive 3-shot groups that were between 7/8" and one inch. I realized that was no handicap to anything I might shoot with this rifle to at least 600 yds, so I accepted the load and took the rifle hunting. Having said all that, I recently took the rifle apart and sold off the components and started with another 338 Win, which is already in the process of getting a new barrel. So even though I know what acceptable accuracy is, I am just not happy until I meet my goal.

3. Until the advent of low cost chronographs, everyone thought their loads were faster they actually were

4. We can't exceed a published velocity without exceeding published pressures. There is no such thing as a ballistic free lunch. If we are 100 fps over the maximum published velocity with the same length barrel as used for the data, it's not because we have a fast barrel or because the data is conservative, it's because we are over the pressure limit.

5. There really aren't any reliable pressure signs until you have exceeded max pressures. I had one load test to 74,000 PSI and the brass showed no signs of pressure. I know of an extensive test performed by an Army ballistics consultant (OK Shooter) that showed one lot of Rem brass wouldn't show ANY pressure signs until 80,000 PSI. For me, primers starting to flatten, ejector marks, slight sticky bolt at the top of bolt lift in tight chambered rifles, and high velocity are the signs that tell me I am over pressure. Fortunately, the most accurate load is usually below that point.

6. Case shape has very little effect on velocity. Case volume and barrel length are the biggest determiners of available velocity.

7. Life is to short to work with a fussy barrel. If I can't get my desired bullet to shoot near the desired velocity within 100 rounds, I'll change the barrel.

8. There are no such things as good groups with an occasional flyer. Flyers indicate something is wrong with the load, loading technique, shooting technique, or the rifle. Usually the load is what is wrong, and the flyer is just showing you the real group size.

9. A hunting rifle can't shoot better than I can from the bench. A benchrest rifle may outshoot me initially, but not for long. All rifles outshoot me from field positions.

10. ALL my observations above are subject to exceptions.......

We load for a lot of rifles in this caliber.

Some are very old, and some are modern bolt action.

We try to keep loads for the older rifles to s reasonable level.

But, in modern rifles, we load some of them much above book loads.

We have never had any problems, and do not expect any.

The same goes for other older rifles in calibers like the 404 Jeffery too.

You just have to tailor the load to that particular rifle.

If you are new to reloading, I would recommend that you stick to the Lyman manual for at least one year. Read the early chapters 2 or 3 times. Understand the correlations between the various dynamics at work in reloading, case, bullet, powder, primer, seating depth, bearing surface, pressure, velocity etc.

If you are already experienced and conscious of safety issues, then I would recommend Ken Waters or the Load Data website for a number of options.

Most important - what will you use the load for? What kind of animal at what range. Then choose the right bullet for the job that shoots best in your rifle.

Good luck and safe reloading.

Saeed. I concur especially on your final sentence. You just have to tailor the load to that particular rifle.
It's good to hear we are on the same page since your experience is mountains above mine. It's not just about the caliber. Everything is everything.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
We load for a lot of rifles in this caliber.

Some are very old, and some are modern bolt action.

We try to keep loads for the older rifles to s reasonable level.

But, in modern rifles, we load some of them much above book loads.

We have never had any problems, and do not expect any.

The same goes for other older rifles in calibers like the 404 Jeffery too.

You just have to tailor the load to that particular rifle.