While I did not expect to reach the speeds listed in the Lee reloading manual I am greatly disapointed with the velocity. I have shot factory loads through my chron and gotten 1200 FPS with both 180 (Buffolo bore) and 158 gn bullets (several brands even cheapo brands like wolf and llc push close to 1200 FPS in my gun). Factory has to be on the safe side and go with a round that chambers in any gun of that caliber. So I figure I should be able too at least equal factory.

The 4 inch barrel of course means I'm not going to get top velocity. At least not safely My goals though are to equal factory loads. To get 180 gn bullets up to 1200 and 158 gn bullets up to 1400. I'm happy with the 1400-1500 fps I'm pushing 125 gn bullets at.

First powder I tried was titegroup. That was a disaster. The FPS were absurdly low and it was quite easy to double charge.

Tried H110 which works, but I'm only getting high 1000s up to low 1100s in FPS with 180 gn and high 1100s to 1200 with 158 gn bullets. For the XTPs that is acceptable as I don't want to push them past the rated speeds anyway. The others too slow.

Alliant Herc 2400 is a great powder for lead bullets in a .357 but I'm getting almost the same FPS with it as with H110 on jacketed bullets. Still too slow.

Figured I needed a faster burning powder so...

Tried Unique and I quickly came to the conclusion I hate that powder. In fact have most of a pound I will happily trade for half a pound of another powder. It left unburned powder everywhere. My gun has never been so dirty and that was with 20 test rounds. I've fired 400 rds or more in one sitting and didn't get it a tenth as dirty as those few rounds of Unique did. The rounds I put accross the chrony crawled accross it so slowly I might as well have been throwing rocks.

Tried Herco but saw even worse FPS than with slower burning powders. Going to retry with magnum primers but am skeptical.

So I'm a bit stymied. Doesn't get too much slower burning than H110 and Herc 2400. Least not with common powders. It's just counter intuitive, I'd think I'd need a faster burning powder. I'm using magnum primers for most jacketed bullet loads. With Herc 2400 I'm seeing a modest (20 FPS) increase. Haven't checked the difference for H110 but suspect it's about the same.

So if it's not the powder what else can I do too improve velocity a bit? I build a load by pushing until I'm seeing primer deformation, then I back down a few tenths of a grain and that's my load. Currently with
180 gn I'm using 13.2 gn H110 and 12.2 Herc 2400

158 14.6 Herco 2400 15.5 H110.

Any ideas would be appreciated.

What factors am I overlooking?

More crimp! Unique is my choice

I second more crimp to hold the burn longer. Buffalo Bore ammo is hardly on the mild side...much closer to the max load and if you were getting 1200fps in a 4" bbl thats not all that bad.

Like Mr S said 1100s with jacketed 180s and 1200s with jacketed 158s is about right in a 4 inch revolver. You can play with the crimp I suppose, stick with magnum primers, and maybe try Lil'Gun. If you still want more speed switch to a hardcast 180 gr lead flatnose over the H110 and see if it helps.

Will deffinitely try more crimp. Will the extra crimp increase the pressure significantly? Thus meaning I should back down the powder and work back up or will the pressure increase be negligible?

Loved those Buffolo bores. I bought a box off the net a year or so ago thinking I was buying a box of 50. The box they came in could hold 50 shells but it was just 20 or 25. Had a new chrony and shot several factory loads to get an idea both how accurate the chrony was and how close to the fps on the box I'd get out of my gun. The Buffulos impressed me. Yeah they run a bit hot, had minor primer deformation with them, and the pleasent splash they made at the end of the rifle range was as big as my .06 makes. If I could afford them that's one of the few factory rounds I'd actually buy in quanity.

Thanks on the tips.

At one time I load and played with many 357 mag loads. I found AL-7 give me the best vel for 125 gr jhps just under 1400 in my 4 inch ruger.

For 160 gr LSWC a max load of herco gave me just over 1300 out of a 6in and 1250 out of my 4 inch. They both give me more vel and lots less muzzle blast and flash then the factory loads I tested along with them.

I never played much with 158 Jacketed bullets in the pistols never could get them to expand properly so I just used the LSWCs.

I do use them with H110 in my marlin carbine for 1850fps They expand at that vel and kill well.

One day when I get rich I'm going to get some ballistics gel and check how these loads perform.

Until then I'm relying on the data I can find. According to Hornady which I find mostly reliable so far. A 158 gn XTP should perform in the 700-1400 FPS range. Given that I figure realistically it's going to perform in the 600-1300 range. So 1200 FPS is about right for me with those bullets which are my favorite 158 grain bullet to shoot anyway.

The 125 gn XTP shows 800-1600 in the Hornady charts. I'm already pushing them at 1450-1500 with H110 so I'm happy with them and pushing JHPs using Herc 2400 at 1500 so again I feel comfortable with those.

What I don't think will work is the generic JHPs FMJs and such at sub 1200 FPS. I want those around 1300-1400 FPS and I really want 1200 FPS outa my 180 gn flat noses.

Hmm I also have a Ruger (Security 6) and I'm getting 1200 FPS outa even weak factory loads. Like my Security 6. I'm getting on paper on the rifle range now though I still have a long ways to go before I can claim any kinda marksmanship but it seems quite doable. I think 100 yards given the dust she's kicking up at the end of the rifle range is quite doable and reasonable distance for hunting and Self defense. Going to take a while before I get profficient at that range. I'm able to do rapid fire accurately and she's been a durable and forgiving weapon for me. Had her for many years. The 4 inch barrel is a good comprimise with accuracy, kick, ability too carry and cost. Though I wouldn't mind putting a 6inch barrel on her. Not sure if that's even possible.

I really want a .44 mag as well but cannot afford one. So my .357 needs to double for all my hand gun needs.

You will always get the highest vel. using the slowest powder regardless of bbl. length. Using a faster powder will only mean less vraiation from say a 6" to a 2" but the highest vel. will always comes from slower powders. You also realize that ALL guns are diff. You can NOT expect to achieve identical vel. that aer indicated in a reloading manual. I have one 4" 357mag the is 125-150fps slower than two other 4" 357mags:
Hrdy factory 125gr XTP
4" Smolt = 1233fps
4" M27 = 1352fps
2" SP101 = 1273fps
6" M686 = 1443fps
It is probably a combination of cyl. gap, chamber size & bbl. size/smoothness.
Using the same 6" M86 I get 1100fps w/ 12gr of 2400 under a Sierra 158grJHC. I think yo uhave to push 158gr bullet [pretty hard to break 1300fps in a 4" bbl. H110/W296 & AA#9 will get you there but not much more. With a 180gr, 1100fps is a safe max. in most 4" bbls.

Hey Fred, Great post showing how a shorter barrel can occasionally shoot faster than a longerone.

quote:

Originally posted by Draciron:
A 158 gn XTP should perform in the 700-1400 FPS range. Given that I figure realistically it's going to perform in the 600-1300 range. So 1200 FPS is about right for me with those bullets which are my favorite 158 grain bullet to shoot anyway. ...I really want a .44 mag as well but cannot afford one. So my .357 needs to double for all my hand gun needs.

Hey Draciron, I used a good number of the 158gr XTPs on Deer from a 6" barrel, but have no idea of the Impact Velocities. What I found though was "over-expansion" in every situation.

Switched over to regular Soft Point Speers and penetration increased. Bought some Linotype 158gr Gas Checked Bullets, which I expected to give Exits, but have never shot a Deer with one of them yet.

The 357Mag, just can't do what the 44Mag will as I feel certain you know. But it does fine inside about 50yds for me. And is excellent for Finishing shots when someone "almost Kills" the Deer. And easier to carry than the 44Mags I've carried, but they just do not have the Horsepower that a regular 44Mag has.

Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills.

Thanks on the replies folks.

Seems like 1300 is prob top end on the 158s but doable. So hopefully the extra crimp buys me some FPS and gets me there.

True. IF I had the money I'd have a collection. Always wanted a .44 mag and a 1911 and am mighty curious about 10mm. Heard good things about 10mm but never actually shot one. Love shooting .44s and .45s. Ruger makes one that is especially sweet. The frame is overbuilt so it kicks more like a .38 than a .45. Can't remember the name off off hand, but every time my bro comes over I shoot off at least one clip in it Then of course those guns would get lonely and I'd need to get them some company LOL.

quote:

Originally posted by Draciron:
Thanks on the replies folks.

Seems like 1300 is prob top end on the 158s but doable. So hopefully the extra crimp buys me some FPS and gets me there.

True. IF I had the money I'd have a collection. Always wanted a .44 mag and a 1911 and am mighty curious about 10mm. Heard good things about 10mm but never actually shot one. Love shooting .44s and .45s. Ruger makes one that is especially sweet. The frame is overbuilt so it kicks more like a .38 than a .45. Can't remember the name off off hand, but every time my bro comes over I shoot off at least one clip magazine in it. Then of course those guns would get lonely and I'd need to get them some company LOL.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Might try NOT using the magnum primers. Seems I've read in another thread that they create too much pressure right away and don't allow the powder to burn completely and build pressure that way (same reason you need a good crimp). The person who posted that (if memory serves) had done some experimenting and found that for anything under a .475 linebaugh, the mag primers were detrimental to velocity. Completely agree with more crimp, slow powders, and Buffalo Bore is indeed on the hot end of the scale.
I've looked and can't seem to find the thread, but if I (by that I mean the guy who I'm paraphrasing) turn out to be wrong, I'll refund what the advice cost you. Seems logical to me.

If you see yourself needing follow up shots the revolvers are great. I got rid of my revolver and got a contender in 357. I equipped it with a red dot site. With the "sealed" barrel (or should I say lack of cylinder) and the extra barrel length you'll most likely pick up 300-400 fps over most revolvers. I can run 180 hornadies easily at 1400+ fps and get 3 touching at 50 yds. 158's run in the 1600 fps range. It's quieter, kicks less, is easier to clean and if/when I deer hunt with it I'll have a ton more confidence in it than my old revolver. At the range it's a whole lot easier and more fun to shoot cause you basically always hit what you aim at. The only reason I'd own a revolver now is if I thought I needed one at my bedside for personal protection but I don't.

quote:

Originally posted by kraky:
If you see yourself needing follow up shots the revolvers are great. I got rid of my revolver and got a contender in 357. I equipped it with a red dot site. With the "sealed" barrel (or should I say lack of cylinder) and the extra barrel length you'll most likely pick up 300-400 fps over most revolvers. I can run 180 hornadies easily at 1400+ fps and get 3 touching at 50 yds. 158's run in the 1600 fps range. It's quieter, kicks less, is easier to clean and if/when I deer hunt with it I'll have a ton more confidence in it than my old revolver. At the range it's a whole lot easier and more fun to shoot cause you basically always hit what you aim at. The only reason I'd own a revolver now is if I thought I needed one at my bedside for personal protection but I don't.

THe TC is a great hunting & met. sil. gun but for much of anything else, just not a handgun IMO. I have one, hunti w/ it, but nothing beats packing a 4" revolver in the woods, regardless of caliber.

I was doing this sort of thing with a +P 45 ACP load. What I discovered is that my chrono was too close to the end of the muzzle.

You end up reading powder particle speed. Six or eight feet from the muzzle on the chrono and then see what sort of velocity you get.

Hodgdon HS6 for .357 magnum loads -- 6" bbl. Bigger magnums, like 44 mag. I like Hodgdon H110 -- which is specifically formulated for magnum pistol.

I stay away from the Bullseye, Green/Red/Blue Dot and Unique.

Interesting. H110 or w296 (the 2 powders are both made by Hodgdon and are identical) will usually produce to highest muzzle velocity with almost all bullet weights and in most cases at least equal factory vel. If you check the Hodgdon online guide it shows a muzzle vel. of almost 2000fps with the 125 gr JHP, but I suspect the numbers were achieved using a test barrel of at least 10". It's also kind of interesting that the starting load is 21 grs with the max. load of 22 grs. If you try those amounts of H110, I found the min. load to be a bit hot with flattened primers being common. But it's possible with only a 4 in barrel, using H110 with the 125 gr bullet could produce a spectactular muzzle flash in broad daylight from powder burning outside the bore, thus reducing velocities.

I also find it interesting you had problems with Unique which is hands down the most versitle pistol powder around. Normally it is guite easy to ignite and I have never noticed any unburned powder with low or higher vel. loads but it's not the cleanest burning powder I've ever used. I would agree with many of the previous posts that a tighter crip "might" be of some help, but definetely worth a try. Also use magnum primers (if you can find them) with the H110 and it should not hurt to use them with the Unique as well. I've used as much as 10 grs. with a 125 JHP with only minor signs of pressure.

F. Prefect

Actually Daniel77 my initial shots with unique and herco were with standard primers. I'm not even going to try Unique again. If you are in West Texas and want to trade something else for some Unique please let me know.

Actually magnum primers were ALL you could get around here for a time. Initially I wasn't going to use them at all as I'm also loading .38 and .40 for family members. Once I started using them I have found I like magnum primers. With Herc 2400 125 gn jhp magnum primers give me a 20 FPS increase over standard primers. Going to try it with XTPs and H110 next and see if I get the same result. Also going to try it with 180 grain bullets and see what happens but I suspect I'll find. With 158 gn SWCs and Herc 2400 I back .3 tenths of grain down from my load with standard primers. Haven't put them on a Chron but I suspect I'll find a bigger speed increase using magnum primers.

Will post results with 158s and 180s using H110, Herco and Herc 2400, Titegroup magnum vs standard primer next time I get the chron out too the range. I figure if the results are consistent with 3 powders and 3 different weight bullets then it is probably going to be true for most loads. Though I suspect with really fast burning powders magnum or standard primer won't make much of a difference. Might be magnum primers are actually slower with fast burning powders. Will be interesting to see.

Man that Contender (sp) sounds pretty wicked Might have to add that too my win the lottery wish list. Then again at the rate the country is going just having bullets might be something to wish for.

quote:

Tried Unique and I quickly came to the conclusion I hate that powder. In fact have most of a pound I will happily trade for half a pound of another powder. It left unburned powder everywhere. My gun has never been so dirty and that was with 20 test rounds. I've fired 400 rds or more in one sitting and didn't get it a tenth as dirty as those few rounds of Unique did. The rounds I put accross the chrony crawled accross it so slowly I might as well have been throwing rocks.

I'm not sure what your load was, but Unqiue actually works quite well w/ 125gr bullets out of a 4". You will still get more vel. w/ a slower pwoder, but less muzzle flash w/ Unique. Run near the top end, it is no dirtier than any other powder. Using 9gr uner a 125grJHP gives me 1330fps from two of my 4" guns, 1380fps from my 6" & you have a bit more room pressure wise in most revolvers.

My 6" 686 will consistently yield 1370f/s with Hornady's 158 grain XTP and WW296, plus it is my favorite multipurpose load. Lead slugs, IMHO, do best when pushed by Unique or 2400. These are the two loads that caused me to fall in love again with the 357 magnum.

That said, I agree with the others as a good crimp does much to ensure consistency. A poor crimp will leave the load's standard deviation all over the map and might well bind up your cylinder. Revolvers are finicky and demand a good diet if you expect 100% out of them.

As mentioned above please reconsider your dislike of Unique as it is the fist powder one should try when experimenting. Possessing an ideal pressure to velocity curve, Unique is also one of the best powders suitable for both pistols and revolvers regardless of calibre.