With all of this talk about Winchester going the way of the Dodo bird.. I thought I'd check out their website, and see if they posted anything about closing shop....

NOT ONE WORD about it! They are acting like full steam ahead....

I tend to agree with a lot of guys, that it is there own reasons for their downfall...particularly betting the farm on those short mags....

however, trolling thru the site, I checked out some of the things that they had listed for 2006... if nothing else it is worth a look to check out some neat ideas for a custom rifle or stock....

What caught my eye, was the Coyote Outback line...They have skeltonized the stock quite nicely I must admit, put on a 24 inch varmint sized barrel, changed the stocks to grey laminate, ( which I think looks better than the nutmeg brown) and then they have it chambered in like the 270 and 30/06 besides the varmint calibers and the short mags....

Some of the prices on their custom stuff was thru the roof! like in excess of $5,000 grand....but for those guys who love high buck stuff and don't own way too many rifles like most of us probably do... there are some nice options available.... ( if winchester is going to be around...!)

If they would have gotten off of their asses and offered some of these products, instead of betting the farm on these new short mags, I don't think they would be putting themselves out for sale....

Day late and dollar short at the moment... however, Savage was in trouble like that once before... I remember an article where a few people internally in an interview were saying things were so bad at Savage, that the staff had to pass the hat to just go down and buy toilet paper for the rest rooms....don't know if that was true or hype, but it made a good definition of being in poor shape...

I am hoping Legacy Sports will pick them up... they are doing a lot of net stuff....with the Howa Line....

But we need to Remember.. Remington might not be that far behind winchester....Makes one wonder why the Big Two are floundering.. and Savage, Ruger and some foreign concerns, like CZ are flourishing....Personally, I blame it on big business accountants and lawyers....

The same type of attitudes have got GM and Ford in bad financial shape... Chrysler is already owned by a European concern... Daimler Benz...

All of these bright ideas turned out by MBA schools is destroying american industry... the grim reaper is finally catching up to them all.. when the pillars of industrialized America are crumbling....and being taken over by foreign competitors....

Check out the Winchester Web Site and check out the New for 2006, if nothing else for a look at what might have been....

Especially the Centennial 30/06 that they are only suppose to make 500 of... Imagine what those will be worth on the collectors circuit... if they get off the product line!

cheers
seafire

Their last update on the News page is over a month old....

http://winchester.com/news/news.aspx

Stranger yet. My dealer just called me about 10 minutes ago to inform me Winchester notified them they just shipped one of the new releases I ordered a few weeks ago to my dealer. One of the LH Sporter III models.

Since I'm a lefty, the only Model 70 I ever bought was the 375 H&H Classic Safari in 2004.

For 2006, Lefties are offered two models with a total of 8 cartridge choices. The 270, 30.06, 7 MM Mag, 300 Win Mag, 270WSM, 7WSM, 300WSM and 325WSM.

Whoopy Crap!

quote:

blame it on big business accountants and lawyers ... The same type of attitudes have got GM and Ford in bad financial shape

... and don't forget the greed of the unions. GM is saddled with the highest labor costs in the industry. The union patted itself on the back when it got/forced GM to pay unlimited medical bills and to pay about 90% of salary to anyone laid off. GM faces over a $1000/car penalty for these costs alone. Medical science knows no bounds when it comes to creating expensive new treatments. The layoff problems are a mix of incompetent management and changing consumer tastes, but why should ex-GM workers get full pay for no work? Anyway, when GM goes under, I won't weep for all those GM guys on the street. They're all overpaid.

quote:

... and don't forget the greed of the unions. GM is saddled with the highest labor costs in the industry. The union patted itself on the back when it got/forced GM to pay unlimited medical bills and to pay about 90% of salary to anyone laid off. GM faces over a $1000/car penalty for these costs alone. Medical science knows no bounds when it comes to creating expensive new treatments. The layoff problems are a mix of incompetent management and changing consumer tastes, but why should ex-GM workers get full pay for no work? Anyway, when GM goes under, I won't weep for all those GM guys on the street. They're all overpaid.

I agree!

I grew up and live in "Union" country. The same thing that happened to Winchester is happening all around me. Several of the taconite mines around here have closed their doors for good. Others have closed and re-opened as Non-Union. The non-union plants are dooing well as are the non-union employees. A few of my friends are employed at the non-union plants, they have no desire to go back to that way of life (having a third party negotiate them right out of a job).

Remember the old saying "An honest days work for an honest days pay". This should be the way an employer/employee relationship should be. When a third party (unions) are involved this old saying is worthless. I see it all the time, hard working men and women being written up by their own union for working to hard( you can't do that job alone in 8 hours, that is supposed to take 3 employees at least 2 shifts, do it again and you are done). We just had an AirBus maintenence facility close cuz the union negotiated these hard working men and women out of a job. And by the way, the union didn't even present some very nice offers the the workers for ratification.

Now, I don't know what happened at Winchester and neither do most of you. We have a foreign company running an American plant using "union" employees. Just lookin at this combo and it looks doomed to fail. From past experience, my money is on the union as the number one reason for this plant going Bye-Bye.

Steve,

I hear what you are saying.. My ex wife was from up in Chisholm/Hibbing...My time spent up there was in the early to mid 1980s...visiting the inlaws and deer hunting...deer hunting was great if colder than hell.. but beyond that.. I wasn't too impressed with "UP on Daa Range"......

In college I spent two years working at a GM plant in New England... I remember the UAW battle cry back then... '40 hours pay for 30 hours work!'......When some worker got into it with a supervisor, they use to have what they called " File a 78"... under that.. the supervisor was suppose to shut up... and send for the union shop steward.....

The shop steward was suppose to listen to the supervisor and then discuss it with the worker and then iron out a solution to the disagreement...what happened it real world terms was that the UAW steward told the Supervisor to go suck a wetone...

If the supervisor didn't back down, they would call a sit down strike, until it was resolved....
I'd have some White Shirt Union guy run thru my section and tell me to stop working instantly and not lift a finger until a union steward came back and told me that it was okay to go back to work......

I admit, I thought that sucked until my ass was jumped on one night by a supervisor.. they were expecting the plant to be reduced to one shift due to the 1973 fuel crisis... so they were trying to stock pile parts.. ONe of my jobs were to hang up internal parts for station wagons that went thru the spray line to be painted... union contract called for 13 sets a night.. this was in addition to my regular job... usually it was only 4 to 8 sets a night in reality...

Then my supervisor asked me to do 15 sets a night, then 20, then 30 then 40....I was keeping my mouth shut about it, so I didn't piss off other union guys, as I got roughed up one night in the plant for doing beyond what was on union contracts....

When I told my supervisor, that's it, NO MORE on night when he was demanding 60 sets... he jumped all over my ass.... my relief guy told me that I could get my butt chewed out or file a 78.... I finally told the supervisor to file a 78, and he shut up....

It taught me, both how screwed management can get, not taking care of their employees but also how ridiculous that a union can get in response...

It just made me want to keep clear of any job, that had heavy union needs and involvment...
Personally, I think self employment is the only way to fly in today's screwed up world......

cheers
seafire

quote:

I wasn't too impressed with "UP on Daa Range"......

Hey Seafire, you got that right! Years ago(50) the range had a reputation of hosting a population of some of the hardest working men in the country. Unmatched work ethic and devotion to family and friend.

This reputation is all but gone now. Now "Daa Range" is known for unions, hard drinkers and a "you owe me" attitude! Sad but true.


If you ever get back this way and want to head up to Daa Range and do some huntin look me up.

quote:

If you ever get back this way and want to head up to Daa Range and do some huntin look me up.

its a date Steve! thanks for the offer....

ever get a chance or want to come out Oregon way for Elk or just good old tons of sage rat shooting... drop me a PM....

deer hunting ain't worth the trip... and elk are hard critters to find.. even tho there is no shortage of them....

if you are into sage rats, or varmint shooting period...one can send more rounds down range in a day, at sage rats, than you could at prairie dogs in a week elsewhere...

cheers
seafire

quote:

Originally posted by asdf:

quote:

blame it on big business accountants and lawyers ... The same type of attitudes have got GM and Ford in bad financial shape

... and don't forget the greed of the unions. GM is saddled with the highest labor costs in the industry. The union patted itself on the back when it got/forced GM to pay unlimited medical bills and to pay about 90% of salary to anyone laid off. GM faces over a $1000/car penalty for these costs alone. Medical science knows no bounds when it comes to creating expensive new treatments. The layoff problems are a mix of incompetent management and changing consumer tastes, but why should ex-GM workers get full pay for no work? Anyway, when GM goes under, I won't weep for all those GM guys on the street. They're all overpaid.

What do you do. I think maybe your're overpaid.

Jarrod, I think you meant to say "you're overpaid," and I suspect I am. International competition is putting the brakes on salaries in my field. So it goes. But my employer can replace me any time he wants for any reason he wants. He pays me what he does because he can't (yet) find a qualified worker ready to do the job for less. GM could easily replace the majority of its union workers with lower cost US workers. Do you care to argue that point? If so, then ask the GM unions to allow non-union workers at GM. Ha! As it stands, the government grants a near monopoly to the union on the supply of labor to GM, and as with all monopolies, prices get raised to artificial levels. Unions are a great idea, so long as membership is voluntary. In closed shops, prices will get out of hand. Few, if any, GM plants have an open shop (but I may mistaken about that). Ok, now I've jumped into political discussions in non-political forums twice in the last week: naughty me; I bow out.

quote:

Originally posted by asdf:
Jarrod, I think you meant to say "you're overpaid," and I suspect I am. International competition is putting the brakes on salaries in my field. So it goes. But my employer can replace me any time he wants for any reason he wants. He pays me what he does because he can't (yet) find a qualified worker ready to do the job for less. GM could easily replace the majority of its union workers with lower cost US workers. Do you care to argue that point? If so, then ask the GM unions to allow non-union workers at GM. Ha! As it stands, the government grants a near monopoly to the union on the supply of labor to GM, and as with all monopolies, prices get raised to artificial levels. Unions are a great idea, so long as membership is voluntary. In closed shops, prices will get out of hand. Few, if any, GM plants have an open shop (but I may mistaken about that). Ok, now I've jumped into political discussions in non-political forums twice in the last week: naughty me; I bow out.

asdf, You may be overpaid, but, you are correct, again!

My understanding is this:
The plant that is closing is the one where they make the model 94. It's the last American plant Winchester has. They say the M94 isn't a money maker.

The good news is that the nice folks at Herstal (the european conglomerate that hides behind the Winchester name) will keep selling us all the guns we want from their factories in Belgium, Portugal, and Japan.

While we're dishing a well deserved ration of crap out to the unions, don't forget the lawyers. If we'd used them for ballistic test subjects instead of letting them sue whole professions and industries into the ground, we'd all be better off. Next time we get liberals in control of tthe government, we can look for the litigators to try to finish off the American firearms indutry.

Everyone wants to lay blame here, i think it's just a normal thing. Look at GM, 30 years ago Buick and Oldsmobile were premium brands, folks paid more for them because they perceived more value. Gradually for a whole variety of reasons most of which were market dominated they came back to the pack and stopped being premium. Winchester and Remington used to build nicer rifles than say Savage and guys would pay a premium for them, gradually over time their competitors got better, sometimes quality, sometimes price. These companies are caught in No-Mans land, they can't sell their products as premium, because they aren't, so they have to move down market. They are geared to produce large quantities and they gradually get eaten alive by Cheaper companies(Savage, Mossberg) at the lowend and the Premium companies at the highend(Sako,Kimber, Montana etc.). Over time they lose their market, quality suffers, which only makes things worse, they don't have the capitol to reinvest, they can't modernize, they do have legacy costs, the union's don't want to move backwards, but you can't blame foreign ownership, or the unions, IMHO, what is killing Remington and Winchester is the fact that Savage and others can build a better mousetrap, cheaper.