Hello

I need some suggestions for a case filler for shooting reduced cast bullet loads in my 460. Thank you for your help!

Mark

You can get a commercial filler made for shot shell buffer, or you can be cheap like me. I use grits or Cream of Wheat. They work fine.

Thanks Waksupi

I just got off the phone with Hogdgon. The tech told me they don't recommend fillers. Have any of you ever heard this before or is this the old standby answer for our litigatious society?

Mark

I've used both Cream of Wheat and fiber for stuffing pillows. The fiber was lighter and didn't affect the powder. You only have to use a small amount to keep the powder next to the primer.

Bob257

Damn, with something that big, I can see why you want a cast bullet load!!! Back to your question. I just got done with some initial trials shooting cast bullets in my 375 Taylor (.375-338) This is quite a bit smaller than your 460 Wby, but I will share my observations. First of all, I tried using Unique and W231 as powders, 245 gr cast and 90 gr roundballs, and filler vs. no-filler. My loads used 10 grs of each powder with the roundball and 11-12 grains of each with the bullet. BTW, Unique is bulkier than W231. These loads were running 15% (W231) to 20% (Unique) loading density verified by filling cases to the base of the neck. With the roundballs, the use of filler was mandatory to get velocity uniformity and groups. SD was all over the place w/o filler. With the 245 gr cast, it made no difference whether I used filler. SD and grouping was actually better w/o filler. Essentially no difference in velocity either, which surprised me. My recommendation would be to go without filler and start at around 15 grs of Unique and see what happens. Good luck and report back.

P.S. (edit) - I used Dacron fiber (pillow case stuffing) as filler and a 1.25" square piece of single-ply TP folded to a 0.63" square (4 layer thick) as a wad on top of the powder.

[ 03-18-2003, 23:28: Message edited by: Lars G ]

I use Kapok for filler in my cast loads with Unique. I seem to get a slightly better group with a filler than without. The mental part for me is that such a small amount of powder has to have an abberant burn rate when sprayed around a large case with the force of the primer. From all I have read powder is designed to burn in a somewhat full column. and flake powder is supposed to burn across the surface. So in my mind the powder is designed to burn like a cigarette rather than gas in a cylinder. sometimes I think it all makes sense and then It doesn't as well. The force of the primer alone can start a bullet down the barrel. How is a tuft of Kapok or TP going to have any effect in holding the powder charge in check? Confused and still experimenting. JB

Some food for thought.
Chamber Rings and Natural Fibers

This article, written by John Campbell, is reprinted here by special permission of American Single Shot Rifle News.
emember the abomination of double-knit fabrics and "leisure suits" that befell men's fashion in the 1970s? I do. And I also remember the happy day when someone once again discovered that natural fibers were best. The world returned to cotton, wool and sanity.

Now it appears that the same philosophy offers us a solution to this over-powder wad/chamber ringing problem. Some of you may remember a few years back when I ruined the chamber of a perfectly good .38/55 Winchester Single-Shot by blowing out 30-30 brass with "squib" loads. I was using 12 grs. of Bullseye, a Dacron fiber wad to hold the powder in place, and a Lyman 311227 cast bullet in the case mouth just to plug the end of the "tube." In less than half a dozen rounds, I had a magnificent chamber ring. It was so bad that I had to pound the cases out of the rifle with a rod.

I reported this incident in the ASSRA News and the piece spurred quite a bit of response and speculation. Charlie Dell was among those who chipped in some commentary. He declared that he'd never had any problem with kapok wads in smokeless powder cast bullet loads, and that he'd never ringed a chamber. I had no reason to question Charlie's contention, but I did give him my recipe for chamber rings nonetheless. Intrigued, Charlie and a learned associate proceeded to see if they could reproduce the chamber ringing effect under controlled conditions.

They used an old "junk" Winchester barrel, chambered it to 38-55, and followed my loading formula. Sure enough, they got rings. And they kept getting rings under the right conditions. Charlie even cut the chambers out of these ringed barrels and cross-sectioned them to examine the swollen rings. Charlie showed me a few of these chambers. After more tests, Charlie reported his findings in this journal some issues back.

The bottom line to Charlie's investigation was that Dacron was the absolute WORST thing you can use for an over-powder wad. Contrary to what some gun writers had suggested in the 1960s and 70s, Dacron is not consumed in the process of ignition. It is merely melted. And under certain conditions, this plastic glob does ugly things to a nice rifle. Here's my analysis.

In a worst case scenario, this goo is thrust ahead of the powder gases and against the base of the bullet. There it encounters an object of resistance (the bullet) and acts much like hydraulic fluid (which is incompressible). If the bullet is breech seated in the barrel, or loaded out in fixed ammunition to engage the rifling, resistance is enhanced and things are exacerbated. As the Dacron goo strikes the base of the bullet, it is momentarily trapped between the bullet and the massive pressure of the powder gas building up behind it. For a microsecond, it has no where to go... except to exert a radial, lateral stress on the barrel steel. If that steel is of a modern alloy with high hoop strength, it can sometimes resist this lateral force and everything seems normal. The bullet begins to move, the pressure at its base is relieved, and the gun fires it projectile downrange. When the bullet exits the muzzle, the melted Dacron evidence is blown to the winds.

However, if the steel of your gun barrel is of a less sophisticated 19th century alloy, like that found in an original Winchester Single-Shot, bad things can happen. The lateral force exerted by the melted Dacron goo is often enough to defeat this steel's strength. In that situation, the Dacron is melted by the burning gunpowder as it is driven forward to whack against the base of the bullet. There it is momentarily stopped, and it "hydraulically" impresses its wafer-like form into the case and chamber. At first, you don't notice that anything strange is happening because the rifle sounds normal and the bullet hits the target where it is supposed to. At first, the ring impression is very light -- almost invisible. But this insidious "Dacron effect" is cumulative. Fire about 50 shots or so and... surprise, you've got a nasty ring! The first time you are aware of such a problem is when extraction becomes a little too sticky. You look at the fired case carefully. Then you see it. Right there around the case neck where the base of the bullet was seated is an obvious ring. By then it's too late. The damage is done.

The only way out of this predicament is to gauge the depth of the ring and then get a neck or neck/throat reamer specially made to clean out the depression. This will increase bullet/case/chamber neck clearance and degrade the bullet-aligning qualities of the chamber. Bullets sized to a larger diameter may help to obviate this drawback, but the results are unpredictable. One of my Model 85s shot worse and nothing could be done to improve its performance. Another was able to handle a special Hudson bullet with its new throat and shot more accurately than it ever had before. Go figure.

But the most important thing to keep in mind with Dacron wads is that the ring-generating conditions and forces are there-- and in play -- whether they create a ring or not. If your modern Douglas barrel shows no signs of a ring with Dacron wads, it simply means that it has been able to withstand the forces that are at work. The ruinous pressure is still there!

For some reason, the Dacron chamber ring phenomenon is very scarce in rifles of .40 caliber or larger. Those who look for it in a 45-70 will look a long time. Why is this is so? Again, I can only offer my personal analysis:

When the Dacron goo hits the bullet base in a chamber the size of a 45-70's, I believe the pressure wafer it creates is markedly thinner than it would be in a 32-40. This thin edge of pressure either exerts less lateral force against the chamber wall, exerts it for a shorter moment of time, or both. The result is a greatly reduced tendency to create chamber rings. But from one perspective this doesn't make sense. If the melted Dacron's ring is narrower, shouldn't that small edge have great force? This is where my insight begins to break down. Maybe larger calibers don't melt the Dacron so completely or quickly.

But we're agreed on one thing. Dacron is bad. So what's the alternative? Actually, there are two. First, you can use no wad at all. Accurate Arms 5744 powder is reported to be fairly "position insensitive." In other words, it can end up pretty much anywhere in the cartridge case and still provide consistent ignition and pressures. My tests substantiate this. But they also hint that if 5744 was consistently back there against the flash hole, it would work even better. So would a lot of other powders that aren't as "Schuetzen-friendly" as 5744.

For them we still need a harmless wad -- like Charlie Dell's kapok. But just try to find some kapok these days. I eventually gave up looking for old life preservers and wracked my mind for a substitute. Then ASSRA member Mike Brennan suggested the obvious: cotton. That's right, cotton. I got my supply from the corner drug store for less than two bucks, and have been using it for years now with absolutely no ill effects. It's fluffy and it works like Dacron to hold the powder back against the flash hole. But it doesn't give you chamber rings. Not in a range of cast bullet loads that I've used it in from 25-20 to 45-70. And let me emphasize that my experience with cotton wads has spanned several years and several thousand rounds. I don't use much. Just enough to hold the powder in place. That amount varies from one caliber/case to another. In process, I push the cotton down against the powder with a section of old 22 caliber jointed cleaning rod. I don't tamp it down.

So far, accuracy with cotton wads is outstanding and the chronograph reveals extreme spreads and standard deviations that are about half those of identical loads without cotton wads. When the round is fired, you can just notice a thin fan of white from the muzzle. This tells me that the cotton fiber is not burning to charcoal -- or melting like Dacron. The cotton is merely riding behind the bullet and dissipating into the atmosphere as the projectile exits the muzzle. And since natural fiber cotton does not enter into a hydraulic, "plastic goo" state under ignition, I don't believe any lateral pressure at the base of the bullet is enough to force a ring into the chamber... even with old Single-Shot barrels. The impedance and ring force conditions may still exist, however.

On the upside, cotton wads may even serve to enhance accuracy by protecting the base of the bullet from distortion and impingement by powder granules. Cotton's insulating qualities may also help to keep more lubricant working for you for a longer time. So at this point, I'm confident enough about cotton to let you in on the secret. It just goes to prove a gentleman's adage, "In clothes or shooting, natural fibers are best."

I have been playing with cast in my big bores like 375H&H, 416 Rigby and 500 AS.
I had moulds for these rifle's in just plain base bullets.
If I want just low Vel. loads I just use XMP5744 with no fillers (I am afraid of fillers) just keep reducing the charge untill the leading is no longer there.
Vel around 1200 to 1300 ft/sec in my 416 that is 29 grain,bullet water hardened and alox bullet lube.
In the 500 that is around 32 grain.
For high speed I use slow burning powders like H4831 IMR 7828 and reduce the charces untill I get the Vel around 1800 to 2000 ft/sec the reduction in charge is not that great and the air space is filled with cream of wheat firmly packed .
Veral Smith in his book on cast bullets states that fillers should not take up more than 1/2 the volume of the case.
In the big vol.cases and slow powders the amount of filler is about 6 to 10 grain.

And jsr is right the filler (small amount as it is )act's like a gas check.

Regards Martin

I use farina cereal,not that it`s special,just that I was given a LOT of it many years ago,in 45-70 I use half a case of aa2495 & half of farina,compress with bullet seating and shoot,most loads are .75" or less at 100 yds and 5 rds.I like it because it works,but when I run out I`m sure I can find something just as good.jmho

Just going to add a few more things to the discussion. I did observe that the dacron filler I used showed varying degrees of combustion. Sometimes it just blew the wad out in front of the shooting bench just like a shotgun wad. Other times it was partially charred. Once, it looked like it burned and then cooled off into a solid mass after exiting the barrel. I'd much rather not use a filler. It is a pain in the ass stuffing a wad. It may be a necessary evil in obtaining decent SD and accuracy, though.

Secondly, I'd highly suggest you read a bit at the following link regarding the use of pistol powders in rifle cartridges. Just click on the internal ballistics link at the top of the page. It definately alleviated my fear of using pistol powders at a low loading density. Powders like Unique, W231, Red Dot and others can and do burn safely when they have a large surface area exposed to the primer flash. This is not dangerous.

In regards to chamber ringing with fillers, I'm not sure. This is the first I've heard negatively about Dacron. I just might give cotton a try to see what happens. All I'm looking for is something to hold the was against the pistol powder. I'm personally leary of using cream o' wheat (even though I use it w/o a bullet to fireform cases) as it adds mass to whole inertia equation.

Using Pistol Powders in Rifle Cases

Some very interesting and informative replys here. I use corn meal when using reduced loads and would never use a light load without a filler because of an incedent I witnessed several years ago. During a PPC practice a gent was shooting a top quality custom made 45ACP. I was talking to some one when I heard a strange report from the line and turned around in time to see the shooter stagger back from the line while still having the presence of mind to maintain safe control of his weapon. He took about 3 or 4 steps back then stopped,shaking his head. Someone else helped him clear his 45 as he was somewhat stunned. He had a couple of blood spots on his nose and right cheek but was otherwise uninjured. The same could not be said for the 45. The slide had opened about 1/2 inch and jammed,and the mag blew out the bottom. The gun was compleatly jammed. The cause? After some discussion,it was determined that a short load was the cause. Upon fireing the flamefront from the primer traveled over the powder igniting the short caseload all at once and causing a dangerous overpressure. After that I always used a filler. derF

I have loaded the 38/55 for decades in schuetzen rifles and had success in competition. I have used IMR 4759 for light loads with a kapox filler. I use 0.7 grs of kapox. I have never had any barrel damage or a overload.

For such a large cartridge as that 460 if you want to use kapox then I suggest 1.0 grs. Just weigh the first few tufts of kapox and estimate the rest. These loads are light ones for mid range target shooting.

For higher velocity loads for hunting with cast bullets use IMR 3031 with the same amount of kapox. You can find loads for the 458 Win and go from there.

It's very dangerous to double charge a case. You must double and triple check that you don't do so. This is an area of handloading that may have the most blow ups due to various charging errors.

You can find kapox in old lifejackets and boat seat cushions.

I have a cast hollow point load for my .375 H&H that is very effective on whitetails. That load is over 2000 fps.

Just in my observation, I have tried kapok, dacron, shotshell buffer, cotton, card wads, felt wads, cork wads, etc., but I finally settled on semi rigid (and fairly crumbly) craft type foam. It is available in craft stores, Walmart, etc., in blocks of different sizes and thicknesses. I cut it into strips 4 or 5" wide, and then cut the depth to slightly more than the space needed to fill the distance from the powder to the bullet base. Charge the case, and then push the charged case through the block of foam that you just cut, into your finger on the other side of the block (this allows the case to act as a wad cutter) . Withdraw the case with the foam still inside, and seat the bullet normally. This gives a slight bit of compression to the foam, and this method has given more consistent velocities, plus better accuracy than any other filler that I have tried.

I have used this method in straight-walled and slightly bottlenecked cases, but obviously it would be less useful with a pronounced bottlenecked case (I have always been somewhat hesitant about any filler in a case with a definite bottleneck, but have used kapok with pretty good success Just don't a lot of jiggling around of the loaded ammo, because it can compress the fiber fillers of all types leaving air space again.).

Jim