57g. Win 760, Frontier cases, Sierra 180 SP, CCI 250, 3.40 OAL. Average velocity was 2,990 fps from a 22" bbl. Group size was about 1.5". No signs of pressure but I am still a bit concerned because I believe that you cant get something for nothing. Is this load over pressure but not showing obvious signs like a stiff bolt opening. The primers are a bit flat but not severe. I am very happy with this load, seems like I am in 300 mag territory, while I am generaly not a speed freak it's still nice to know I can be when I want to be. I am just as happy with a blue dot load of 27g. and a 150g. Win Power Point which scoots out the bbl at about 2600 fps. What are your thoughts on this 180g. load?

quote:

Is this load over pressure but not showing obvious signs like a stiff bolt opening.

That's the thing with reloading.....sometimes we just hit it right!

Strictly a guess here.....you're probably over 70,000 PSI.......

if it were me id stick with it but hey im young and mad. if it aint giving any of the traditional pressure signs then everything must be fine internally.

as japodog said, you really hit it right!


but in the VV manual with sierra hpbt and n150 books max is 3132fps with a 24" barrel, so id assume you can get 3000 with the right powder.

With W760 and 22" barrel, that's way TOO HOT! for 180 gr. bullet from an '06. At the top of this section there's some data from M98/Collins showing PSI for various '06/180 loads. I'd recommend using one of those shown, if you want a hot load. I'd recommend MRP, Re22, or WXR and circa 63 grs as a MAX, and with a 22" barrel you should be able to get over 2800 fps safely.

FWIW, there are a lot of .300WM's that won't drive a 180 at 3000fps. I think you're in some dangerous territory.

Some pressure signs show up as loose primer pockets by the 3rd or 4th loading and and earlier case head separation from brass pushed this hard. An 06 should be able to get no more than 2850 with a 180 gr bullet and typically around 2800 fps for longevity of cases, the gun and your body parts.

Assuming your chrono is reading correctly I can not get Loadtech to get close to 2990 with 760. Still 200fps below at 70,000. To reach that velocity you have to have serious pressure even if it is not showing.

I gave up years OK disagreeing with a velocity claim. People can read a screen as well as I can. I shoot a 308 Norma and load for several 300Wmags. 3000-3100 with a 24" with 20 more grains of powder is the normal loading range.

I did a lot of pressure testing years ago as I worked up my wildcat. What I found was like many say each rifle is its own test. Some show stiff extraction some don't, some show pressure signs at 65,000 some not until over 70,000. I've had rifles that showed no signs what so ever but the second loading I could push the primer in with my finger and the third the primer would fall out.

Many will state that as long as you see no signs of pressure then the load is safe. I for one don't. When you are over 70,000 you are so close to trouble that any minor change can lead to major problems.

I spent many years trying to find that load 1/2 grain below the problem line. Blown case, blown primers, and really for what? The extra few fps that the target will never feel? I now try and set my limit at 65,000 for my reloads even in rifles that have handled over 70,000 before. Less for loads I load for family and friends.

Maybe I'm just getting boring in my old age.

I entered your data into my Load-from-a-Disk program. I made a few assumptions, such as case capacity in grains of water, and the exact SP Sierra bullet. The results always come up one way: HIGH PRESSURE.

It says at 95% load density, 57.4 gr WW760 you should get ~2860fps at 57,160 CUP. You're loading .4 gr less powder yet getting ~130fps greater speed. Definite overload. Continue at your own peril.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:
Maybe I'm just getting boring in my old age.

I see I'm in good company roger

It may show no signs of pressure,but unless you are using a strain gauge ,do not assume that to be true.You might get away with it for a while,but sooner or later a stress fracture will occur and hopefully it will not end up in your face.If you want a magnum,buy one.

The current Sierra manual lists a MAX charge of 52.8 grains for W760 and the 180 grain bullet with a velocity of 2700 fps from a 26" barrel.

So you are 4.2 grains over max. Put another way, that's 8% more powder than the max listed charge in the manual. Allowing for barrel length, you are getting almost 400 fps more than you should be with a safe load. That's almost 15% more velocity than you should be getting.

"Continue at your own peril." is a mild understatement.

You should continue at the peril of yourself and those around you!!!

LWD

In strong rifles, handguns, and shotguns, I like to increase the load until I get the first sign of a problem, like stiff bolt, loose primer pockets, extractor groove growth, primer piercing, primer leaking, etc.

Then I back off a percentage powder charge for safety margin [6% ala Vernon Speer 1956].

I don't want a stuck case or primer falling out when I need to gun to function.

I don't use load books anymore with the ~60 cartridges I handload, just Quickload and my notes.

I don't ever try to infer something about pressure from my chrono measurement.

Even if the Quickload velocity prediction is right in the middle of the chrono string, the Quickload pressure prediction could be way off.
The only correct answer is what the brass says, as it is the final judge of pressure, not silly chrono readings, psi predictions, psi measurements, or arbitrary SAAMI registered pressures.

Have you ever got the right answer for the wrong reason?

The limiting factor for pressure with a modern turnbolt action is the brass case (and to a lesser extent, the primer cup). If the cases are not expanding (primer pockets staying tight with repeated firings, etc.) and the primers are not piercing, then your load is "safe" IN THOSE CASES and IN THAT GUN. "Safe" doesn't necessarily mean "advisable".

In my estimation, the lot of cases you are using would have to be unusually hard in the head area to withstand the pressures such a load would seem to indicate.

To prove or disprove the "pressure relative to the containment vessel" (ie, case) do this: Load and shoot a single case until it exhibits measurable head expansion and/or a loosened primer pocket. If its dimensions are still acceptable after three to four firings, then your pressure is acceptable. I would also advise cautiously loading and shooting a load reduced by three grains or so in case from a different lot of brass in the same manner to ascertain something about the relative strenghth of the brass.

All that said, my suspscion is that you have an abberation in your chronograph readings. Have you double-checked your instrument with velocity measurements from other guns shooting at a known velocity?

Another question, is the gun new? Sometimes a new gun/barrel will not be able to handle some of the higher pressure loads that it will be able to able after a bunch of useage. But like everyone says here every gun is different. Maybe you have a oversize cut on the chamber and a tighter cut on the bareel??????????

The latest Winchester components booklet shows three loads for various 180 gr. bullets in the 30-06 with W-760. The max load, depending on the bullet ranges from 51.4 gr. for the fail safe bullet at a pressure of 57,100 PSI.to a max load of 53.0 gr. for a 180 gr. SP (soft point?) at 50,000 PSI. The last load is for an FMJBT with 52.5 gr. for a pressure of 48.500 C.U.P. The highest velocity is 2725 FPS for the SP bullet.

My point in all this is that the loads usually given for the 30-06 are very conservative in deference to all the old 1895 Winchesters and low number 1903 Springfields. This also holds true in the various loading manuals, again due to the older firearms and liablity concerns.
Some of the publishers of loading manuals latel have gone to longer barrels to gain a bit more velocity with slightly lower pressures. (Damned liablity lawyers anyway.)
However, in a modern action, I see absolutely no reason why a round for the 30-06 cannot be proprely handloaded loaded to the full 60,000-65,000 PSI level of the modern magnum cartridge.
The big problem is, one, data is not available, although I think it exists. Two, I would be willing to bet that the people who work up the laods for the loading manuals who shoot the 30-06 have that data worked up for their own personal use.
Three, has anyone chronographed 180 gr. 30-06 ammo lately? I did, with the 180 gr. Winchester Silvertip. Speed was 2610 FPS from a 22" barrel, not the 2700 FPS advertised. OK, so they used a 24" barrel. In my 24" barreled custom, velocity was 2640 FPS IIRC, and to add insult to injury, from a 26" barreled Ruger #1B velocity was still 10 FPS short of advertised speed. I also chronographed some 180 gr. Silvertip ammo from a 22" barreled .308 Win. and velocity was right even with the 30-06 in the ame barrel length. You might be paying for 30-06 speed but at least in the case of the ammo I tested, your 06 is nothing more than a .308 Win.
Now, regarding that 2900 pluf FPS load. Either that load is way over the limit and is a ticking time bomb or your chronograph is screwed up. At the charge you gave, I'm inclined to go with the former.
One book I feel every handloader should find and read in PRINCIPLES AND PRACTICE OF LOADING AMMUNITION by Earl Naramore circa 1948. The book is long out of print, is heavy (over 900 pages) and can be boring at times. However, the last third of the book is dedicated to the handloader and well worth reading. I do recommend reading the whole book the first time around, then just reading the handloading portions from titme to time as a refresher course. One of the most interesting things I got from the book is every time you fire a cartridge, there is a certain amount of stored energy in the metal of that rifle. The higher the pressure of the load, the more stored energy there is, and it's cumulative. He likened the process to taking a wire coat hanger and bending it back and forth until it snapped in two. How many round would it take, even at normal prssure ammo before something let go? Be interesting to find out, but evem machine gun barrels wear out before hitting that final breaking point.
For those interested in reading that book, try Amazon.com or Barnes & Noble. be advised the the book is out of print and any copy in decent shape will set you back as least a "C" note plus shipping. It's well worth the price IMHO.
Paul B.

My two cents worth Redrider.

I shoot for the best groups, trying to get the most velocity, and not the other way around. You should be able to shoot within an inch at a 100 yards with your rifle, load combo. Secondly, when I work up a load, I increase the powder charge until I reach the max published velocity in my manuals. When I get there, and if I can not see any signs of pressure, I might try to increase the charge by .5 gr increments. What I noticed most the time is, after reaching max published loads, the velocity gain stops increasing, and in most cases might drop slightly. At this point I know I reach absolute max pressure and I back off 1 grain. Animals do not know anything about fps, foot-pounds, etc. They die because you hit them in the right spot, making them bleed to death.

Cheers,

Maurice

quote:

If you want a magnum,buy one.

+1

Thanks for all the advise. I was looking at my Speer book and 57g. of 760 is for a 150g. bullet, doh. I only fired about 10 rounds or so of this load in my JC Higgins 51-L (Husqvarna). I'm not trying to make it into a magnum, I am just as happy with blue dot loads. I hunt deer in Eastern Washington and the shots are usually well within bow range typically. I am going to use a reduced load this year to cut down on meat damage hopefully. As I said I was a bit concerned and it looks like it was for good reason, you cant get something for nothing.

I have ~50 load books, and "Speer 12" and "Speer13" are easily with worst.
Loads are arranged in order of velocity, but are not at the same pressure, and the start velocities were dry labbed with an incorrect formula.
Give those books to someone you don't like.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
Load and shoot a single case until it exhibits measurable head expansion and/or a loosened primer pocket.

I made a reloading set up with multiple presses that I took to the range.
One press to de cap
One press to re size
One press to bell the mouth [if needed]
One press to seat the bullet.

I could fire a 5 shot group with the same case nearly as I could fire any 5 shot group.
But loading the same case over and over at the range turned out to be a waste of time.
The precise amount of powder that causes a primer pocket to expand is not that important to get in one trip to the range.


In this work up I have a .223 33 gr Vmax moly and Blue Dot

quote:

16 gr Blue Dot 2.170", no egg Ruger #1
17 gr Blue Dot 2.170", no egg Ruger #1
18 gr Blue Dot 2.170", no egg Ruger #1
19 gr Blue Dot 2.170", .001 -.0015" egg Ruger #1
18.5 gr Blue Dot 2.170", .0005" egg Ruger #1
18.25 gr Blue Dot 2.170", .001" egg Ruger #1

As one can clearly see the extractor groove growth [egg] occurs at or above 18 gr.

Another trip to the range showed that 18 gr got egg half the time and half the time not:

quote:

Ruger #1, 26" barrel, 8x32x44 Burris
33 gr. Vmax moly [.495" long plastic tipped bullet], 18 gr. Blue Dot, chamfered mouths, .245" neck bushing, 2.170"
4,107 fps no egg [extractor groove growth] [Quickload thinks it would take 68,000 psi to get this velocity]
4,097 fps no egg
4,127 fps [ extra pound of opening force on action, .005 to .010 extractor groove growth (egg), 4 of 14 round had this problem] [Quickload predicts 3850 fps, 51,749 psi, and thinks it would take 70,000 psi to get this velocity]
1.4" 6 shot at 100 yards
1.3" 5 shot at 100 yards

I backed off on the load to 15 gr [ 3600 ~ 3650 fps] and I have shot hundreds of rounds.
The safety margin of powder charge for this load was 20%, not 6%, becuase the bore will foul with hundred of rounds at more than 3650 fps.

One other thing, I just checked my Speer #12 book and it list 57g. for a 150 and 165 and 55g. for a 180 so I am 2g. over which is bad but not as bad 4.2g. over as LWD pointed out. I know that different sources list different max loads so thats no surprise though. I will try to be more careful next time. Thanks again.

Reason you will see different loads is because the different shape. length etc of the bullet can cause different pressure curves. Also some tables are built with actual measurement and some are built by extrapolating families of curves.

This is from Winchester on the 760, 30-06 and 180s as max.

180 GR. FMJBT 52.5 2700 48,500 CUP

180 GR. FS (CT) 51.4 2625 57,100 PSI

180 GR. SP 53.0 2725 50,000 CUP

You can find both 60,000PSI and 50,000CUP as max pressure for the 30-06.

Loadtech calls 53grs of 760 and a 180 as 60,000 max. That would put 57grs at around 68500-70000. But velocity would still be 250FPS short.

I would scrap every case that fired that overload.

quote:

One other thing, I just checked my Speer #12 book and it list 57g. for a 150 and 165 and 55g. for a 180 so I am 2g. over which is bad but not as bad 4.2g. over as LWD pointed out. I know that different sources list different max loads so thats no surprise though. I will try to be more careful next time. Thanks again.

That's true if you were using Speer bullets, but you aren't! Why are you using a Speer manual with Sierra bullets? There are folks on this forum who will disagree with me and many who won't, but I do not believe mixing load data is prudent. Even within cup and core bullets, construction of the bullet will vary. E.g., thickness of jacket, jacket material composition, hardness of core, et cet. These differences can cause significant pressure differences with different bullets. That there is a more than 2 grain difference between different manufacturer's load data for the same bullet should say something. Additionally, with the publication of Speer #14, you are now two editions behind with the manual you are using.

I hope I'm not coming across as too preachy, but reloading is not an area for anything other than great care. Roger and Ramrod are right on. Boring is good.

LWD

I'm firmly in the camp that says to let the brass tell its own story as to the safety of a given load.

When living in the Arctic, where temps are NOT what they are in the southern 48 states, I developed a .30-06 load that served well and reliably for many years. I would NOT use it here in Nevada without reducing it and re-experimenting.

Without citing a charge, I will tell you that, with good brass life and perfect rifle function, my 22" Remington 700 .30-06 consistently delivered a 200-grain Nosler Partition at 2750 fps. No sticky extraction, no loose primer pockets, just a VERY effective load checked with three different chronographs over the years.

My brass for that rifle has always been Winchester brand, and it lived long enough to serve well both in the hunting fields and at the range later on. Typically, I use ONLY once-fired brass for my actual hunting, but the older stuff was used for practice and other load work without any undue numbers of case casualties or short life.

This rifle and its brass have long-since convinced me of the safety of this load as used in the Northern climate, and they are the final authorities, in my book.

Quickload says it is still safe with a maximum pressure of 3784 bar where max. allowed is 4050 bar, calculated speed os however lower with 2716 fps. Cases and/or barrel migth explain the difference.

quote:

I spent many years trying to find that load 1/2 grain below the problem line. Blown case, blown primers, and really for what? The extra few fps that the target will never feel?

I totally agree. As I have gotten older, I have seen too many accidents. I still have my fingers and my eyes, I want to keep it that way. I try to stay within published data, not willing to push the envelope.