Gentlemen,
I currently shoot a Winchester M70 Classic Stainless in 30-06 as my main rifle, and it is usually just over an inch (1.1 or so) at 100 yards. I bought the gun brand new, and only ever shot one box of factories through it, because I didn't have the loading equipment and supplies for it yet. My question is this: This gun has consistently blackened the case necks and slightly down the shoulders of every handloaded case I've shot, but not the Yugoslavian factory loaded stuff I shot at the beginning. My load is not hot. I am shooting CCI standard primers, 54.0gr. IMR 4350, Wincester case, 180 Gr. Rem pspcl bullet. I should mention that I have also noticed that the primer is slightly cratered on every shot, even though my loads are not at all hot. This happened in with 51.5 gr loads all the way up to 57.0 gr. loads. I did have a couple of case necks split on me yesterday, after less than 5 reuses. I just assumed that perhaps my firing pin hole was slightly oversized. Tell me what is going on here
Regards,
Graham

For one thing, from what I've read about this. Your case neck is not sealing in the chamber for some reason.

Try loading with 4895 and see if that cures the problem of black necks.

Far as splitting the necks. Anneal your brass necks and shoulders. That should solve that problem too.

I have a major conflict with almost everyone when it comes to how to anneal brass. IF you'll look it up in the dictionary it'll explain this is "softening metals by use of heat".
Shouldn't be any arguments with that much.

I'm a college grad of welding and metalurgy, plus at least 15 yrs working in the field. The way steel is softened. Heat it red, and let it cool in the ambiant air by itself no matter how long it takes. It will be softer. Try this with an old chisel, or screwdriver tip.

IF you quench it when hot, a red heat into cold water or oil. It will be brittle. Barely a slight pink, it should be a very good usuable hardness. All this depends on the amount of carbon in the steel though.

It is my belief, any metal no matter what it is. That's heated then quenched with cold water, This will harden it.

But, this is exactly how just about everyone from amatures to the best experts you'll ever find will tell you to: "set your brass in water about an inch deep, or half way up the case. Heat the necks & shoulders to a light red color then tip 'em over in the water and quench them. They call this: "annealing".

Totally opposite of metalurgy procedures. But, it's done by hundreds of reloaders and seems to work just perfectly.

My opinion as to what this does is: "the heat softens the brass, yes, the quick quenching RE-tempers it to a fresh state".

No doubt, what I've just written is going to stir up the hornets nest. Call it as you wish, do it as you desire. This is just the way I learned tempering and annealing both in college, from the metals books, and vast experience. Yes, it's completely opposite from what all the expert reloaders for the last 75-100 yrs have said.

Wish you well with how ever you may wish to do it. I do feel retempering your case necks will cure the cracked neck problems.

One other thing I've found that works best for me. Never exceed a max charge and I never load more than one grain less than max in anything. Just seems safer that way.

We don't drive as fast as our vehicles will possibly run do we? Why would you want to shoot your gun that way???

George

quote:

Originally posted by georgeld:
...I have a major conflict with almost everyone when it comes to how to anneal brass. IF you'll look it up in the dictionary it'll explain this is "softening metals by use of heat".
Shouldn't be any arguments with that much.

I'm a college grad of welding and metalurgy, plus at least 15 yrs working in the field. The way steel is softened. ..

Hey George, There is a very easy way for you to resolve this conflict, get out your Materials Handbook and it should clear up the difference for you.

You are 100% correct that Annealing Steel is done by "Air Curing" and Hardening Steel is done by "Quenching" in water or harder in oil.

However it works just the opposite for Brass because of it's physical properties.
---

If your Materials Handbook is stored away, you can run a relatively quick Test for yourself with 4 Brass Cases from the same Lot that have been fired a few times.

The Test cases will be worthless when we get through, so be sure to destroy them after the Test so they can't accidentally be used.

Take one case and hold it by the Case Head with your fingers. Heat the Case Neck glowing red with a Propane Tourch and drop it in a bucket of water. (If your fingers get to feeling the heat, go on and drop it in the water.) Take a second case and do the same thing. After they cool, do it again. We want to really Anneal them so it is easy for you to see the difference.

Take a second set of Cases you have not done the above Annealing to and place the Case Necks in a Vise with a light grip on them. Measure from the floor up to the Vise Handle.

Add enough weight to the Handle by hanging something to the end of the Handle, maybe a gallon of water. (It depends on the size and twist rate of the Vise.) Then remeasure the height to the Handle.

Do the same thing with the Annealed Test Cases.

You will find the Annealed Cases deflect more with the same amount of weight because they are softer.

That way you can prove it to yourself that the structural properties of Steel and Brass react differently to heating and quenching. And you will no longer be at odds with the rest of us.

Best of luck to you.

HC

You always amaze me with how varied your knowledge is.

Now if I can just find a modern gadget to do the same thing !

There is a possibility that the blackened necks and primer cratering may be caused by a die adjustment issue. You might try seeing if sizing the necks half way on some fired cases produces different results with the same powder charge...Rusty.

It is generally believed that black necks result from powder residue getting between the neck and the chamber. Low pressure loads, and slow powders may release the bullet before the neck can seal off. So what?. Anealing (quenching in water, God only knows where the other info came from) may allow the neck to seal at lower pressure. Shoot what your rifle likes, and don't worry about the necks.
Good luck!

Neck splits in my experiance are usually caused by work hardening and are`nt a pressure related problem. I have a 6.5x55 with a sloppy neck area that resizeing causes work hardening and splits after 3-4 loads. I know this and have been tossing cases after the 3rd load, it is however at the present being rebarreled because of this.
Primer cratering as you state can be a problem with the fireing pin or its hole and isn`t always pressure related.
The smoked necks I would believe are from low pressures not fully sealing the case neck to the chamber wall.
Does the rifle crater primers with the factory stuff you`ve shot? Have a smith check the pin protrusion to insure it isn`t to long. This might give a clue on why you see them with your loads.
Try a slighty faster powder or raise the charge a grain or so. The soot should go away or reduce if low pressure is the problem. (only try this if the load you are useing is not max)

The "old fashioned" method of annealing case necks involved standing the cases in a pan full of water
heating them until they glow then tipping them into the water.

As for your specific problem? it is generally agreed
that Winchester brass is harder than say... Remington brass.

It might be easier to try the same load with remington brass and see if you still get blackened necks.

AllanD

Hot Cure is dead on the money and the "old fashioned" meathod works just fine.......I taught metal shop for 34 years and can attest to the fact that steel and brass (or copper) work just the opposite. I used to love to fool students who thought copper should work the same as steel.....could have made a lot of money betting those kids.

JJB

M70, if you plan on annealing anything, do yourself a favor and read the article on 6mmbr.com on the subject. In the first place there is no need of quenching brass in anything, water or oil, and there is a lot more to it than heating it. The temp. must be quite presicse, the chances of screwing your brass up are a bit better than they are to do it any good.

My wife is a silver smith who also works with copper and brass. She says that quenching after heating cases lessens the softening ie making it more brittle. I do it the way my old lady tought me and it works, copper and steel need to be quenched though.

I don't have a degree in welding?? Nor metalurgy. Perhaps that's why I've never annealed a case in my life. I would do it PERHAPS if I had some very expensive or rare brass but as a rule, brass is so cheap that unless you'd rather be dicking around in the shop when you could be shooting, why bother?
I've 30-06 brass with I'm sure 10 or more reloads and 7-08 brass with twice that. I shot 'em 'til the necks get thick and then I pitch 'em.
My first suspect on black necks is too slow a powder or too mild a charge. As posted, if its a good load otherwise, just live with it. Split necks after just a few reloads usually means an oversized chamber.

quote:

Originally posted by M70classic:
My question is this: This gun has consistently blackened the case necks and slightly down the shoulders of every handloaded case I've shot, but not the Yugoslavian factory loaded stuff I shot at the beginning. My load is not hot. I am shooting CCI standard primers, 54.0gr. IMR 4350, Wincester case, 180 Gr. Rem pspcl bullet......I did have a couple of case necks split on me yesterday, after less than 5 reuses......Tell me what is going on here Regards,
Graham

I'll assume you are using the Yugoslavian cases? They are not known for their quality annealing. The others are correct that to coninue to use those cases you should anneal the necks. I would suggest you just pitch them and get some W-W or R-P cases along with some Winchester WLR primers. Try your load and see if that doesn't cure the problem. With IMR4350 you will always get some sooting of the necks but it shouldn't extend onto the shoulders or further back.

Larry Gibson

Just a thought. the symptoms are threefold - blackened necks / shoulders, split necks and cratered primers.

The blackened necks could be due to an incorrect powder choice, or low pressures. Assuming low pressures, I'd say that the cratered primers may well be excessive headspace (adjustment on sizing die), which might explain the split necks.

Should I just go back to sleep?

It's my opinion that the people who say to heat the necks red hot in a pan of water never tried it. When I have to anneal, such as when converting cartridges, I hold the head in my fingers and heat the neck just short of red then quench. This way you will soften the head which is a great way to destroy things.
Good luck!

quote:

Originally posted by iwzbeeman:
Perhaps that's why I've never annealed a case in my life. I would do it PERHAPS if I had some very expensive or rare brass but as a rule, brass is so cheap that unless you'd rather be dicking around in the shop when you could be shooting, why bother?

Because the range is four feet deep in snow, or the wind is blowing 45 MPH. There are times when sitting in the shop, dicking around, isn't such a bad option.

As far as dropping the cases in water, I believe this makes a lot of sense when holding cases in your hands and twirling them in the flame. If you just drop the case in a bucket (without water), the residual heat in the case(s) would move towards the head of the case and soften it.

Annealing is a function of both TEMPERATURE and TIME. By dropping the case in water, you STOP the process, and keep control.

If you stand the cases in a half inch of water or so, I see very little benefit to quenching, but can't say it hurts, either. Whichever way you do it, just be consistent about it.

I anneal quite a few cases, especially my expensive Lapua cases and my long range varmint cases. I also recommend that people at least buy a bottle of tempilaq, and time how long it takes to get each case up to temperature. It can take as short as 9 seconds (223 rem case) to as long as 35 seconds (223WSSM case). It's not rocket science, but for a $12 bottle of Tempilaq you will KNOW, rather than GUESS. HTH, Dutch.

Of course Templac it the way to go. You can ruin a neck by over heating it. My experience with the pan of water is that sooner or later one case will knock another over. Good Luck!

I thought I'd throw this out on dirty cases and sooty necks. Some time ago I switched over to Bardahl to lube my cases. It is the strongest thin filmed lube that I've come accross; especialy useful for severe forming on wild cats and such.

After using it for a while I noticed more and more dirty sooty cases. The lube is so tenuous that even after wipeing each round with a rag the cases feel slick. It dawned on me that perhaps the Bardahl was leaving a path for the hot gas to pass between the brass and the chamber.It also seemed that the more I shot the more the stuff built up in the chamber.

This of course was more prevalent with lower pressue loads.I've done some testing on this effect but have not really come up with anything definitive.

The question is; has anyone else encountered this lube soot effect? roger

An interesting read on Annealing Brass

the answer to you anneling delima

some other observations on sooty neck.
Measure the wall thickness of the neck and it will most always be sooty on the thinner side.
Not enough bullet grip on brass that has been shot and resized several times.
chambers that have been polished may not grip the case to the wall.
Dave

Gentlemen,
Thanks for all the ideas. Just to clear a few things up, the max load for IMR 4350 in my Hornady book is 57.0 gr. However, I am shooting Remington, not Hornady bullets. That may have an effect on it. Is 54 grains considered a low pressure load, if 57 is max? I tried going up that high, but accuracy dropped off, so I went back to 54 grains. Is it worth my time and money to get a smith to check the chamber? Also, the Yugoslavian Brass had no soot on the neck, nor were the primers cratered. Is there something to be said for soft primers? I don't have much experience, so I am willing to learn all I can.
The way I size my cases is to adjust my RCBS FL die to just touch the top of the shellholder, then lower the ram and screw the die in approx. 1/16 turn farther, so that the press "cams over." I believe that was the directions given in the instructions for the dies and press. How do you all do it?
As to powder choice, a friend uses IMR 4350 in his M700 Mountain in 30-06, and has had good results. I just thought that that would be a good place to start. It also gave the highest velocities in the Hornady manual.
The cases are blackend on the necks, and this extends down to just onto the straight part of the case.
Thanks ya'll for your time. I have learned quite a bit in this discussion.
Regards,
Graham
If any of this information affects the answers, please let me know.

4350 is a great powder for the 30/06, but it is a tad on the slow side. You may be over
re-sizing the brass. Adjust the die such that the case will be just off seating at the shoulder. Take one of your resized cases and add "scotch tape" to the case head. Add tape until you can just feel the shoulder touch. Mike the tap and you will have the clearence.
Good Luck!

M70, you are oversizing your cases. Do a search on partial full length sizing and follow the directions. It basically allows you to just bump the shoulder back enough for easy chambering. Any farther leaves excesive slop in the chamber which can easily lead to cratered primers and poor case life. It gets discussed several times a year on this forum.

Good luck!

Roger —

Thanks for your post on the Bardahl-lubed, sooty cases — it helps clear up something I noticed recently.

I actually have run across sooty cases: I used some RCBS case lube I bought a decade or more ago, and that I hadn't used before, to lube some 6 mm Rem cases for FL resizing (I hardly ever FL resize — I only neck size, and if I'm going to lube, I use One Shot).

I shot several rounds before I noticed an oily, sooty deposit on the fired cases. I stopped shooting that batch of ammo immediately, even though they didn't show any obvious signs of excessive pressure, and the accuracy was everything I've come to expect from that rifle (i.e. — most excellent!). I shot other batches of 6 mm reloads that hadn't been FL sized and the problem disappeared — i.e. no more soot.

When I was cleaning the rifle, I noticed the sooty deposit extended onto my bolt face and had collected in the ejector groove (my 6 mm is built on a Mod 98 Mauser). I showed the cases to my gunsmith, and he said he'd never heard or seen anything like them, but agreed that my reloads didn't appear to be over pressure.

My best guess was that I'd failed to remove all the lubricant, and that it was somehow allowing gas to pass backwards . . . not the most comforting thought (but I'd never heard of such a thing until I read your post, and I've been reloading for upwards of 30 years).

Your point about Bardahl being tenacious seems to apply to the lube I used too. Having FL resized those cases, I'd put them in a vibrator for a few hours before priming them — but even that evidently didn't remove all the lube. Since my sooty encounter, I've wiped each case of that FL-sized batch (loaded and primed only) down gently with 0000 steel wool, and that seems to have done the trick.

I appreciate your post. Thanks

Brian

I noticed soot on my necks of my 221 fireball when using 16 grns lil gun powder with 40 grn vmax 3600fps then when i used 20grns rel 7 with the 40s 3500fps no soot clean then if i load 50 grn vmax 3200fps with lil gun no soot.So maybe it's just the powder bullet combo

quote:

Originally posted by fireball10x:
I noticed soot on my necks of my 221 fireball when using 16 grns lil gun powder with 40 grn vmax 3600fps then when i used 20grns rel 7 with the 40s 3500fps no soot clean then if i load 50 grn vmax 3200fps with lil gun no soot.So maybe it's just the powder bullet combo

When loads are to lite the brass does'nt expand and seal the chamber as well as when hi pressure loads are used ,hence the soot around the neck.

quote:

Originally posted by Clawmute:
Roger —

Thanks for your post on the Bardahl-lubed, sooty cases — it helps clear up something I noticed recently.

Your point about Bardahl being tenacious seems to apply to the lube I used too.
I appreciate your post. Thanks

Brian

And I,Brian, appreciate your concurrance. What you described was exactly what I'm encountering, bolt face and all. Don't think I'll change lubes though. Bardahl is the best I ever found. The cleaning will just take a little longer. roger