On the news this morning in Memphis there was a story about a young man that "shot" his girlfriend with a cartridge. He states he was holding the cartridge in a pair of pliars and hit the primer with a screwdriver. The bullet penetrated his girlfriends neck somewhere causing much blood loss and reportedly she may not be out of the woods as far as survival. Now, do you guys think, with this information, that there was really no gun involved? I guess you check the projectile for rifling..but, would you think the bullet would actually exit with enough force to penetrate much? I would think the case would likely be a little more dangerous than the bullet. What are y'alls thoughts?

This is his story or the authorities?

This is the news story. So, I assume it is his version.

Interesting. Disturbing, but interesting. Personally, I think that even with no barrel, the case neck would probably provide enough resistance (initially) to allow the bullet to be probelled at a velocity that is certainly dangerous to human life.

I do agree with the statement that the cartridge would probably be just about as dangerous as the bullet though. Not being contained in a chamber. (scary thought).

But, if I was in charge of the police, the first thing I'd do is check the bullet for rifleing, no matter what the guy said.

mike

I have not witnessed this myself, though I have read quite a few threads about rounds "cooking off". If I understand what I read, usually the bullet just pops out of the case enough to let the building pressure escape. I am thinking this bullet will have rifling.

I agree. I think when tested the police will find rifleing, and at that point it get's ugly.

mike

I can't even imagine how a person could hold the cartridge with pliers and try to smack it with a screwdriver and manage to hit another person without injury to themselves.

I do think that the bullet would have some velocity to it especially if the bullet was crimped in place. Haven't you ever heard of somebody throwing a 22LR bullet to the pavement or putting one in a vise and smacking it with a hammer and doing damage to life or property?

years ago I had an 06 round go off in the press (no dies in) when pressing in a primer that stuckout to far. The round split the case like a bananna peel and the bullet went up through basement ceiling tile and lodged into the wood floor about 1/2".

Seems like in both of those examples the cartridge case was held in place in some way. I am guessing that the case would have even more velocity being the lighter of the two projectiles.

I think Bullie has something there, as a kid we stupidly would put 22s in a fire and it was the case that went flying, not the bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by b beyer:
I think Bullie has something there, as a kid we stupidly would put 22s in a fire and it was the case that went flying, not the bullet.

Yup.....and that's what will happen to a detonated .30-06 with no restricting barrel to channel the gas.

Case blows schrapnel around and the bullet falls to the floor.

I guess it's possible if he had wide jaw pliers holding a pistol round such that the pliers were crimping the case on the bullet. That might provide enough resistance to let the pressure build up to dangerous levels.

But it just proves one thing:

Never underestimate the power of human stupidity!

Rifling on the bullet will debunk the myth if there is one since the guy has commited to the pliers explanation. I agree with several observations and no doubt, pliers don't control recoil very well, but it's not likely the press would think to ask!

I have not heard any more info on this. I asked a cousin thats an engineer and avid reloader. He thinks along the same lines. Without a barrel and chamber, the bullet just pops out of the case.

butchlock's experience seems to support the claimed incident, but it doesn't: his case was fixed in a vise which might have given a semi-chamber-like situation.

Two films come to my mind where people used a cartridge without any shooting equipment to harm or kill adversaries: BS.

The other thing I remember is Hatcher's notebook where he is describing some experiments of that kind (ignition of cartridges wrapped in a towel - some brown spots but not a crack in the towel).

If one should succeed in setting off a cartridge in the maintained way, it would be more harmful to the guy knocking the primer than anyone else.

The evidence: there is no only the bullet with or without land marks but the (rest of the) case (plus primer (still in the case or popped off) as well.

IMH: a BS story

I agree. Most likely the primer would have been the most dangerous projectile.

What the idoit fails to think of while telling his story is that gun or not, he still pointed a round at a human life with expectations of the round firing. While I think there was a gun, the intent was the same.

The NRA ran a test some years ago cooking off rounds with a cardboard box over them. The bullets didn`t pierce the card baord. I kinda doubt the guys story...........

I have been checking the tv and news websites and cannot find anything else on this story. I would have liked to know how it turned out.

Yeah, the bullet could have fired out of the case, maybe.

Everyone keeps mentioning checking the bullet for rifling. What about the case? With no chamber to support it, it would be extremely deformed, if not ruptured. If it doesn't look like that, then he used a gun.

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
years ago I had an 06 round go off in the press (no dies in) when pressing in a primer that stuckout to far. The round split the case like a bananna peel...

My bet is on poor reporting. I would say that a piece of the case hit her, not the bullet. I wasn't there though.

Who knows? Maybe we'll hear something else about it later on.

Good point steel. I had not thought of that at all. Surely the cops did though.

I just realized that I have a perfect example to go along with this.

When I was in Iraq, the building that one of our companies was living in burned up(electrical fire, damn 220v). Well, there were several thousand rounds of 5.56 and 7.62 in there, along with grenade rounds. After the fire went out and all of the UXO was cleared, I went in there and looked around. I saw many piles of ruptured or exploded cases, and melted bullets all over the floor. Hard to say if any bullets actually fired out of the cases, b/c of all the grenades that cooked off and peppered the walls with holes.

No one was injured, but everyone in the company lost pretty much everything they had, both issued and personal stuff. Some poor guys only made it out in their boxers.

"How bout them Dawgs!!!"

Yeah, how bout em?

quote:

Memphis

Bullie,
Did that ever get into print?
I cannot find it searching the press in Memphis.
Was it in the US?
Cheers from Darkest California,
Ross

When I was a kid(long ago) a friend shot at a 12 ga. shotshell laying on a table outside. He was shooting a daisy red ryder.He hit the primer,shell went bang and the primer near took off his ear. Bloody mess. After things were patched up we looked around. The shotshell was still on the table,some soot around it,along with a few pellets.
That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. Mark

Someone get a hold of "Mythbusters". Let's see how this sorts out.

35404, I have to admit to being the shooter in a similar incident with a .270 Win round. There were several rounds sitting on the bench, and my cousin put a couple into the holes of a three hole brick that was laying around. I made a stupid (but accurate) shot form about 15 yards, and the primer popped me in the center of the chest, owwwww! Nice bruise/blister, lucky I didn't lose an eye.

The cartridge didn't show any signs of ignition at all, but we didn't try a second 'test'

Cheers--Don

quote:

Originally posted by Bullie:
On the news this morning in Memphis there was a story about a young man that "shot" his girlfriend with a cartridge. He states he was holding the cartridge in a pair of pliars and hit the primer with a screwdriver. The bullet penetrated his girlfriends neck somewhere causing much blood loss and reportedly she may not be out of the woods as far as survival. Now, do you guys think, with this information, that there was really no gun involved? I guess you check the projectile for rifling..but, would you think the bullet would actually exit with enough force to penetrate much? I would think the case would likely be a little more dangerous than the bullet. What are y'alls thoughts?

This story is B.S.!!! If it is fired outside of a weapon's chamber, and manages to develop enough pressure to move anything, it is the cartridge CASE which becomes the projectile because it is lighter. The bullet just lies there..... This has been observed countless times in fires in which ammuntition exploded. The cases made holes in cardboard ammo boxes, but the bullets didn't move off square one!!

Steel,
I am sure that was an Arkansan's attempt at being funny. And I am equally sure that if another Arkansan is capable of reading your post, they would find it amusing.

Ewin,
I have not seen anything else about it. I saw the story on the Fox station in Memphis. I have checked their website and watched their news and have not seen a followup.

Yeah, it was an attempt at being funny. Didn't mean to offend you. Sorry.

Right on El Deguello, I've cooked off 22cal. LR rounds in a campfire before, I know it was stupid, did a lot of stupid things in my younger years. When the shells burst the heavier bullets didn't go anywhere, while the lighter cases, shot backwards with fairly high velocity...... not enough to break the skin but it popped backwarks. Sorry fella' I don't buy it.......

Hello the camp:
While I do not believe the story aabout the bullet being launched with enough velocity to seriously injure someone, I also do not believe that you can pop a primer with a screwdriver in a cartrage being held in pliers in a free hand.
they just arn't that sensitive. Think about it.
try holding a carterage with a spent primer in it in one hand and try to hit the primer free hand with a screwdrive. How many times does it take? The story is or bull manure, and not even of the best kind.

Judge Sharpe

I've not seen anything else about this on the news. If I find anymore info I will post it.

I have seen 2 incidents of failed/weak extractors in 1911 45 auto's that held the case enough while extracting, yet allowed the the slide to run the cartridge back into the ejector, striking the primer. Both cartridges ruptured sending schrapnel into the shooter's hand. The bullet fell out through the magazine well.
I don't believe the story, whether his or the media...

I have some first-hand knowledge in this matter. As was mentioned, the demonstration (most often using the ubiquitous .30-06) of using a hotplate and a cardboard box as a cover, has been done for decades and decades (at least as far back as the 50's I know personally). Nary a cardboard box in the many I have personally done have been perforated. Generally speaking, the heat of ignition for powder is lower than it is for primer mixtures. Therefore, the powder will ignite before the primer in a "cook-off". This usually means the primer does not become a projectile in a "cook-off".

A neighbor's infant (not yet walking) child got into a box of .45 ACP ammo and was playing with the cartridges. However it happened, one of the cartridges "went off". The case hit the child in the abdomen near the belly-button leaving a small bruise. The bullet apparently fell to the floor as it was found between the child's legs.

Recently, a friend of mine's 10-year-old son got his hands on a 12 gauge shell. He propped it up 'appropriately' and and shot the primer with his BB gun. The primer perforated his lower lip, and hte rest of the shell was almost intact. If I remember correctly, he was about 15' away from the 12 gauge cartridge.

Finally, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that hitting a primer with a screwdrive is easily acomplished by the most inept. However, the original story said nothing (as far as I can tell), about the cartridge being center-fire. I can envision the following scenario that lends a certain 'plausibility' to this "story" (rumor):

Macho boyfriend is telling his gun-intolerant girlfriend how "safe" cartridges outside of gun are. To prove it, he offers to "show" her. Looking around, he picks up the first tools that come to hand... a pair of pliers, a screwdriver, and a small cartridge, like a .17 HMR. He holds the RIMFIRE in the pliers, and since it is such a small cartridge, the jaws of the pliers fairly well encompass the case. When he hits the edge of the case, the cartridge ignites, and because the pliers contain the pressure well enough, the bullet moves out smartly enough to actually penetrate the skin and embed itself in her neck. When the idiotic press gets the story, they spin it so that there is some question as to whether she will even survive.

In this scenario, there is:
1) No primer to fly about,
2) The pressure of a small rimfire cartridge is contained by the jaws of the pliers,
3) Exaggeration and inability to 'get it right'(as usual) by the press.

Or... he could be lying.

Paul

Why is it, and this has followed me my adult life, the idiots in the media can't find SOMEONE with a little firearm knowledge to run their stories by before they are printed? They must have a relative or friend of a friend or a college aquaintance to ask questions of. How about a janitor in the building. This has really bothered me. THe only conclusion is they don't care.

i guess i been wondering how many hands this guy had...... been trying to figure out how i would hold a cartrage and a screwdriver and a hammer and hit it all the same time...... something ain't right!