Some discussion is going on here in the Netherlands about silencers. In some countries a silencer is prohibited by law for hunting purposes. Anyone knows why?
Could one of you explain if it makes any sense to use a silencer on weapons which fire bullets at superspeed? In my opinion you can only suppress the noise of the pressure of the gas forces leaving the muzzle, but you can't suppress the sonic boom of a bullet anyway. Do you think a reduction in sound level, when using a silencer, of superspeed boom and exitgasses together is noticeable?
Please some technical information. Thank you.
Jan.

Jan,

You can do a google search on Reflex Silencers made in Finland.
Here in the States there is a general opinion that a silencer is something used by assasins. Ignorance rules. They were added to the restrictive regulations regarding fully automatic firearms back in 1929 during the Great Depression here by wildlife park managers. They were scared people would be hunting on the park property in order to get food to feed their families.
Here in Alaska there is no law to prohibit the use of a suppressor, but some other states may differ.
A suppressor can do nothing to mitigate the sonic signature of a bullet, only the escaping gases from the muzzle.

quote:

Originally posted by Jan:
Some discussion is going on here in the Netherlands about silencers. In some countries a silencer is prohibited by law for hunting purposes. Anyone knows why?
Could one of you explain if it makes any sense to use a silencer on weapons which fire bullets at superspeed? In my opinion you can only suppress the noise of the pressure of the gas forces leaving the muzzle, but you can't suppress the sonic boom of a bullet anyway. Do you think a reduction in sound level, when using a silencer, of superspeed boom and exitgasses together is noticeable?
Please some technical information. Thank you.
Jan.

Your basic assumptions are correct. In Oregon the possession of suppressors is legal. At one time it was illegal to hunt with them but some years back hey revamped the game laws and that law was ommitted making it legal. I have hunted varmints and deer with a suppressed weapon. Of course on big game since you are only shooting one and your first shot should be good (right?) then whether or not the animal hears the muzzle blast is a moot point.

Shooting varmints or predators (coyotes) on the other hand is different. The sonic crack while it may startle them or at least get their attention does not seem to alert them to danger as does a muzzle blast. On numerous multiple coyote engagements I've shot one and had the others ignore it or run over to the dead or wounded coyote to see what was wrong with it. I've missed some with long shots and had the coyote circle and sneak up on where the bullet impacted. Not having the muzzle blast again seems to negate any hint of danger to them. Hunting small game with subsonic ammo is very effective as other game animals are not scared off by the noise. If you miss the one your're shooting at will most likely not move far if at all.

There are definate advantages to using suppressors.

Larry Gibson

Larry, Being legal in your home state do you still need a Fed Tax Stamp(Class3)????????Thanks OB

quote:

Originally posted by OLBIKER:
Larry, Being legal in your home state do you still need a Fed Tax Stamp(Class3)????????Thanks OB

Yes. You still need the Fed Tax Stamp.

I like my supressors. I think even with super sonic ammo, it is easier on my ears. They also make a good mussle break, if you hvae the right one.

Silencers are better described as sound moderators or suppressors as thats what they really are.

True silence is almost possible with for example a single shot or bolt action or locked semi auto using .22 subsonics and a full over barrel silencer with barrel porting. These are rare and most guys who build these do it for novelty value.

Here in NZ silencers are an over the counter purchase and have been for years, really common.

They are popular here on cebterfires with full loads and while there is a sonic boom or crack, the muzzle blast is much reduced.

This saves the shooters hearing and also makes it more pleasant for bystanders or perhaps dogs. Also saves upsetting the neighbours if near another house as on a typical smaller lifestyle block we often shoot on here.

Animals cant seem to pinpoint the source of the noise and actually get quite nervous.

I use them mainly on rimfires including .17 HM2 and they are great, shoot all day without earplugs or earmuffs even with full velocity loads.

in .17 HM2 there is almost no muzzle blast at all and a strange metallic sound seems to start about 2 metres in front of the muzzle and tracks across the landscape like a mini jet plane. Never heard a sound like it!

With silencers you can converse normally with your shooting companions and also hear the bullets hit much more clearly etc.

I am building a .204 PPC varmint rifle, yep, its getting a suppressor.

Wouldnt shoot without one now.

quote:

Originally posted by OLBIKER:
Larry, Being legal in your home state do you still need a Fed Tax Stamp(Class3)????????Thanks OB

As mentioned it is required. I do have mine registered as such - wouldn't be speaking here if I didn't. Being in SF for years also gave me the chance to work with several suppressors on the military side and knowing a couple manufacturers helps too.

Larry Gibson

I have sound moderator's, the term used for silencer's here, on four of my rifles. I have reflex T8 moderator that is interchangeable over my .243, 6.5X55 and 222.

The T8 is an over the muzzle variety which screws onto the end of the barrel, so by having the same male thread on each barrel, the moderator becomes universal, the only individual requirement is the nylon bushing in the end of the moderator which goes over barrel needs reaming to suit the individual barrel. This is necessary as it is load bearing suport point for the moderator. Each barrel has it's own bushing.

The moderator reduces muzzle blast and the exhaust gases, it also reduces recoil substantialy. Of course it can do nothing about the supersonic crack of the round. It does mean that you can maintain a sight picture after you pull the trigger, no muzzle flip. They do away with the need for ear protection and they do seem to tighten groups. There is no movement in the POI whether it is fitted or not. They are very common in the UK now.

As Kiwi Vince pointed out game really does not know where the shot comes from and it is possible to have multiple shots quite easily.

The rimfire moderator just screws straight onto the barrel, an extension as it were
. With sub sonic rounds all you hear is the cycling of the rounds and the metallic click of the shot.

This is my T8, it's not a good photo but, it gives you an idea



hope this helps

John

This seems like a good place for me to ask about subsonic .308 again. You never know when someone new might be here and have the answer I'm looking for. I know that s/s .308 is possible, as its available commercially. Anyone have any ideas on handloading them? ~Marc

quote:

Originally posted by SC_Gunner:
This seems like a good place for me to ask about subsonic .308 again. You never know when someone new might be here and have the answer I'm looking for. I know that s/s .308 is possible, as its available commercially. Anyone have any ideas on handloading them? ~Marc

#1. Use a barrel that is 1 in 8 or better (1 in 6.5)
#2. Follow information I captured below, but understand I have not tried it because I don't have a 308 with a 1 in 8 barrel.


10.2 gr trail boss 180gr RN
or
8.5 gr Unique 150gr RN

Call Sierra at 800-223-8799 for more subsonic load data.

The original reason for rules against silencers was an anti-poaching effort: if you can't hear the gun, you don't know who's poaching deer.

In Idaho, you are allowed to hunt varmints, but not big game with a supressor. I have one on order, so I can kill predators on the farm more efficiently. The fed tax stamp used to be a big deal, but in this case, inflation is our friend.... FWIW, Dutch.

In the US, politics are dominated by liberals, and that mostly means Democrats.

Liberals get most of their "facts" from movies, that's where they learn all they need to know about firearms and Global Warming, etc.

Movies teach that only crooks have or want silencers/suppressors and that can't be allowed. So, there is a Fed. law prohibiting ownership UNLESS the citizen has paid a stiff tax when applying for permission. Then, if the gov. overlords agree, we can have one, otherwise not.

Few applications are approved but you don't get the money back, that's their's when it's payed.

quote:

Originally posted by SC_Gunner:
This seems like a good place for me to ask about subsonic .308 again. You never know when someone new might be here and have the answer I'm looking for. I know that s/s .308 is possible, as its available commercially. Anyone have any ideas on handloading them? ~Marc

In LC cases with WLR primer; Sierra 165 HPBT over 8.5 gr Unique - 1020 fps out of 22" 1-11" twist M1A. Five shot MOA at 100 yards.

Larry Gibson

I watched a "hunting" show the other day. they were is RSA thinning springbucks all the rifles had supressors, it was strictly a herd control hunt and they could make multiple shots before the animals got excited. they are illegal here in Wyoming, but a friend has one on an AR in Montana for predator control on his ranch

Thanks ddunn and Larry for the s/s data. Do I need to use any kind of filler with the fast burning powders?

As for suppressor apps being approved, it all depends on where you live. The forms must be signed by the sheriff of the county in which you reside. Here in Upstate S.C., this is routinely done without any problems. But I have heard that in some N.C. counties, specifically Mecklenburg, you don't have a chance. I have a suppressor on order for my Walther P22. The rimfire suppressors are not as expensive as the centerfire models, and you generally get a whole lot closer to "silent". A friend of mine has a Remington 700 PSS in .308 with a Thundertrap suppressor, and with s/s ammo it is downright scary. ~Marc

quote:

Originally posted by SC_Gunner:
Thanks ddunn and Larry for the s/s data. Do I need to use any kind of filler with the fast burning powders?

As for suppressor apps being approved, it all depends on where you live. The forms must be signed by the sheriff of the county in which you reside. Here in Upstate S.C., this is routinely done without any problems. But I have heard that in some N.C. counties, specifically Mecklenburg, you don't have a chance. I have a suppressor on order for my Walther P22. The rimfire suppressors are not as expensive as the centerfire models, and you generally get a whole lot closer to "silent". A friend of mine has a Remington 700 PSS in .308 with a Thundertrap suppressor, and with s/s ammo it is downright scary. ~Marc

No filler or wad needed with the Unique load. It would probably cause problems in the suppressor if used. Getting the app signed can very well be a problem. I got mine when I was a SGT on a PD, the chief would not sign it (he favored gun control) but the sheriff (an elected sheriff) signed it without problem.

Larry Gibson

Thank you, folks, for your input. Some comments are very instructive, especially those on game behaviour. I think there are some good reasons to cancel the ban on suppressors here in Holland and I hope the authorities will show any understanding for the advantages, because (for example) poaching is undependant of law-permit and the availabilty of this item.
Nice day,
Jan.

SAKO used to load a subsonic 308.
185 grains bt and 8 grains of some powder.

quote:

Originally posted by ELKMAN2:
I watched a "hunting" show the other day. they were is RSA thinning springbucks all the rifles had supressors, it was strictly a herd control hunt and they could make multiple shots before the animals got excited. they are illegal here in Wyoming, but a friend has one on an AR in Montana for predator control on his ranch

Just need to correct you on this they are not illegal to own in wyo. I have several and have several friends that have them in wyo.