Nickel cases don't tarnish and are so easy to clean, but they are very hard. I have ruined more than my share.

The shoulders on some rounds with steep shoulder angles will just collapse when seating bullets.

This gets expensive with rounds like the .416 and .450 Rigby.

I have concluded that I need a neck expander with a bigger diameter for such rounds.

Is that the common solution for this problem or am I missing something? If I'm not off-base, then do the die makers offer the oversized neck expanders, or do we have to buy the next size up and turn them down?

Of course, unplated brass cases have their own problems. Some seem immune to tarnish, but others tarnish heavily, especially at the case mouth.

I'm not sure why that happens so often with some cases - most notably Federal in my experience - but not others. I have thought that it must be the powder or primers, but I'm not sure. Some cases from a variety of makers will just tarnish all around the case mouth or even all over if not cleaned immediately after firing.

They pretty quickly turn black and I have found that normal tumbling with walnut or corn cob media will not clean them.

I have decided to try wet tumbling with stainless steel pins and detergent with a citrus additive.

Have others found that this works to remove stubborn tarnish?

Try shooting black powder and see how fast they turn black. Immediately.
I polish them in walnut shells and Midway polish.
Live with non pristine shiny brass cases. It doesn't hurt anything.
Nickel? I do use them too.
In the overall scheme of things, I have better things to worry about. I mean, about which to worry.

If you use a larger expander button you will lose neck tension! Most expander buttons are 1-2 thousands under bullet diameter.

Try chamfering the neck more.

Hip

Not worried about neck tension with these nickel cases. Quite the reverse. They are so hard that they spring back to too tight after a normal expanding die does its work.

Try more inside chamfer if the case mouth.

I don't own a case tumbler but have found the best for bulk cleaning cases is giving them a quick soak in a solution of citric acid, about a teaspoon of citric powder in a couple of cups of warm water, rinsing in hot water and allowing to dry properly before loading. This removes tarnish and leaves cases clean albeit not shiny. They usually have a slight pink tinge on the brass which conditions them to prevent further tarnishing. After resizing with Imperial sizing wax, rolling cases in a fuelite dampened paper towel cleans and imparts a shine to the brass.

As for nickel plated brass I have noticed no issue when resizing my 7mm WSM brass although when I have pulled bullets from Federal and Winchester factory rounds to check powder weights and make up a couple of dummy rounds I found the bullets, especially the nickel plated Federal TBT bullets, scored quite badly. The factory brass has not had the case mouths chamfered properly IMO. I apply a good chamfer to case mouths with a Lyman VLD tool and then bullets seat nicely.

anneal them.

quote:

Originally posted by Lamar:
anneal them.

No, be careful with annealing the sharp shouldered cases as this will only soften the brass leading to more shoulder collapsing. The Rigby case is known for this problem and if brass is too soft and a good chamfer is not applied it is worsened.

It is only the nickel plated Rigby cases that give me this problem.

Unplated brass Rigby cases do not.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
It is only the nickel plated Rigby cases that give me this problem.

Unplated brass Rigby cases do not.

This was on another forum discussion about reloading nickel plated cases:

"I purchased .243 win nickel plated brass. I had the following problem:
Crushing the necks when seating bullets. I had to purchase a VLD neck reamer from Lyman to fix the problem"

I avoid Nickle plated rifle cases.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
. . . I have better things to worry about. I mean, about which to worry.

Classical reference. Well played.

Having reloaded 1000's of both 416 Rigby and Remington I lube the case neck, inside and out with a dry graphite lube before sizing on the Rigby to prevent the shoulder collapsing.

Have never reloaded a nickel plated case.

I have little use nor a need for nickel plated rifle brass, just my two bits..

Me too Ray. I will take tarnished brass over brittle brass all day long.

Well, outfits like Norma and Federal like to load their African hunting calibers in nickel plated cases, so I am stuck with a lot of once-fired nickel cases that I am too cheap to throw away!

I will try inside neck chamfering a bit more aggressively before buying or making a larger neck expander.

Trouble is, in these calibers, every mistake I make costs me at least three bucks and a wasted hard-to-get cartridge case!

Thanks for all (or almost all ) of the advice.

Brass is a soft 'sticky' metal whereas nickel is harder 'slippery' metal hence one of the reasons manufacturers now use nickel plated brass to produce smoother feeding and chambering cartridges.
A lot of ammunition used for personal and police defense purposes is now nickel plated and the trend continues into African hunting cartridges as noted by Mike.

While my experience is limited to my 7mm WSM, I haven't found the nickel plated brass to be any harder to resize then plain brass.

I prefer it in both rifle and pistol. I've never had any issues with it ever in anything I load with it.

quote:

Live with non pristine shiny brass cases. It doesn't hurt anything.
Nickel? I do use them too.
In the overall scheme of things, I have better things to worry about. I mean, about which to worry.

^^^^^^

This

I bell the case mouth ever so slightly on the 416 Rigby, unless I am loading something with a boat tail. I imagine the mouth suffers a bit of work hardening, but so far no issues and no crushed shoulders. I have done this on nickel plated bras as well.

It really is a Rigby nickel-plated case problem.

No other nickel-plated rifle cases give me these fits, and my plain brass Rigby cases don't either.

Once again, thanks for the ideas. I will solve this problem and let you know how it goes.

As for the brass case tarnishing problem, my goal is to fix it.

If I'm going to spend time cleaning cases, and I am, then I'm going to get the most bang for my buck.

I have bought a Frankford barrel tumbler and some stainless steel pins.

With a bit of detergent, some citrus based cleaner, and a tank full of water, we are going to tackle this.

It will take a little bit longer and be a bit more work than a walnut shell approach, but as I say, I want results and am willing to give it a try.

I will report on what happens, or doesn't.

Considering the trouble hunters go to for camouflage, tarnished cases are probably a plus, esp. where they are exposed on the front of safari clothes.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Considering the trouble hunters go to for camouflage, tarnished cases are probably a plus, esp. where they are exposed on the front of safari clothes.

I have actually seen brass cases in some PHs' ammo belts so discolored by verdigris that they would qualify as camouflage.

I haven't had too much trouble with the .416 Rigby cases from Federal.

I even ran a bunch through my AMP machine, and that tends to make the necks a bit sticky for the resizing ball.

The nickle plating got a bit discolored with that, but the cases seem to reload fine.

Frankly, I am not too worried about how discolored the brass is... as long as the bullet itself isn't discolored- which tends to indicate it was stored a long time in varying conditions.

I like Lee’s mouth belling plunger they use in their powder-through neck expansion dies. It is adjustable and can set for just slight belling. It is best followed however with a LFC die after seating.

I like the Nickle stuff and find it very handy when I have two similar sized cases to have one in brass and one in nickel.

quote:

I will try inside neck chamfering a bit more aggressively before buying or making a larger neck expander.

Mike:

NOE makes all kinds of neck expanders that work with Lyman M dies, surely there is one that would fit your needs.

Cool. Thanks for the tip. I will see what I can find.

I avoid nickel. Hate the stuff. Doesn’t size right sometimes. Hard on equipment. Sometimes trims shitty. Never really had a tarnish problem. But I’m not one that needs their brass perfectly clean.

Mic your expander ball, I have found a few that were way under size .

Paul K

I think the expander ball can wear down, esp. If insufficient lubricant has been used on it or inside the case shoulder.

Michael tumbling with SS pins works extremely well. I use this process for all of my brass and it has cleaned some very old brass extremely well. I do use both detergent and Lemi-Shine. I used to use a Thumblers unit but sold that and now use a Rebel-17. It cleans inside case necks and primer pockets as well.

When I load for the AR on the progressive I bell the case mouth just a touch with a Lee universal expander (as I recall it works up to 45 cal but not sure that a 416 Rigby will fit into the body - I can check later). It has a reversible expander with one side larger than the other. I do this because I trim the brass and actually use the tumbling process to knock the burrs off. For high volume progressive reloading I cannot be bothered to chamfer. I am also seating flat base bullets so a very slight belling enables me just to get the base of the bullet into the case. It works well. I also apply a light crimp afterwards - as one should with a self loader - and between the seater die and the Lee FCD any belling is removed.

Edit to add: https://leeprecision.com/universal-case-expanding-die


As I recall Lyman made (or makes) an M-die which can also expand necks a touch.

Provided these are quite abrupt expanders - i.e. they open the mouth only and don't expand the entire neck I would think they should work fine.

I see Balule's comments although I think your issue is getting the base of the bullet started into the case and that once that is done you should have no issue.

I also have some big bores with once fired nickle cases, so I am following with interest.

I'm not sure about tumbling the nickel cases - but I think your tumbling question was related to the tarnished brass cases.

The Lee die seems unlikey to fit a 416 Rigby case in the body.

This is what I would try - https://kmshooting.com/product/expand-mandrels/

The mandrel sits outside of the top piece which screws into your press so the case doesn't do "inside" a die. I would consider a 45 for a 416, so that you get the abrupt belling just at the mouth for the 416. You can also adjust it and set it so that all are expanded the same. It works with a stop that bottoms out in the case, so maybe ask about a long one for the 416 Rigby case. Alternativey you could just put a longer screw / bolt into the bottom of the expander. I use these for some cartridges to expand the case mouth to neck turn. I would possibly lube the mouth to do this and tumble afterwards or remove the lube via other means.

Thanks to everyone for this advice. I know there is a solution here somewhere!

I find myself occupied with a massive inventory/cleaning/de-priming and resizing project right now, going from small to large.

I will get to the .416 and .450 Rigbys soon enough and will take this advice into account, put it into practice and let you know how it goes.

I checked my Lee universal expander with a 416 Weatherby case - no Rigby brass on hand - and it would NOT fit the shoulder into the die body.

The only use I had for nickel brass was to identify solids from softs, mostly imagined btw!!

Pet gorillas are expensive and it takes one to push a nickel case thru a resizing die..

Necks on nickel need to be outside neck reammed..

All in all I just dont' need the hassle...