I had a problem with runout after resizing fired brass in my Forster fl. die. i first found that the spindle was a little bent, so I thougt that it was the spindle. I then went and gota new spindle, in order to correct the problem.
It didn't work.
I then went and got a new complete die and I still have a runout problem.

Is there a trick to adjusting this particular die so runout is eliminated?

I have not changed the original setting on the new die. I use a rock chucker press and RCBS holder. I lube close to exessively.
(Only difference so far is that the new die scratches the neck less than the first one.) I size Norma premium match grade brass.

However... I have solved the problem with neck runout by using another spindle from a different caliber die. What I did was. I took the spindle from my forster .222rem die and screwed the .270 expanderbutton on it. adjusted it so the necks weren't damaged/crushed. That adjustment left me with the spindle hanging in just a few threads in the nut, and thereby it is allmost able to swing like a pendulum, inside the die.

When I saw that it worked for me, I tried to adjust the original spindle as loosely as possible. It didn't work. And then I tried, not tightening the top nut at all, so that it would just hang in the threads of the first nut, but the spindle is still threaded all the way through the nut.
that didn't work either.

Is this a problem that only I have? Or have you heard about such a problem before.
How did you correct it??

K&B Niels

I've had good luck by adjusting the expander/decapper rod up into the die as far as possible. I leave just enough length to allow the decapper pin to knock out the primer, but no extra. This keeps the pin stiffer, and allows it to better resist lateral movement of the case neck.

If the case neck is ever so slightly thicker or softer on one side than the other, the expander ball will get pushed aside to some degree as it pulls through. Keeping the pin stiff will help to resist this. Lube in the case mouth won't really make a difference.

Remove the expander button completely from the die and size a case, then check concentricity of the case mouth. If it is good, then you know that the expander button is pulling the case mouth out of concentricity. Depending on which concentricity gauge you have, you should be able to check the decapper/expander pin's straightness.

I've also had good luck by chucking the expander assembly into a drill and polishing it smooth. This allows you to use less lube. Too much lube can create problems.

You don't mention what your runout numbers are. From my own experiments, I believe that .005" or less is more than acceptable. I mentioned it elsewhere, but while fireforming some Winchester cases in my .308, I shot a 1/2 MOA group at 600 yards using ammo that exhibited .005 to .007 inches of runout (168 Sierra Matchking, 43.6 grains IMR 4895). So I'm not as convinced as I once was that minor amounts of runout cause problems. That 1/2 MOA group is about as good as I've shot with that rifle at that range.

You can spend a lot of money on specialized loading dies, but I don't believe it is necessary. Variables from other areas more than occlude the advantages gained from perfectly concentric ammunition. I've made ammo using Lee's RGB (ten bucks a set!) loading dies that was concentrically near perfect, .002" and less. Don't get caught up in high tech gadgetry if you can avoid it. Save your money for more powder and bullets!

Take care,

Dan Newberry
green 788

Thanks Dan

I've tried what you said.. To remove the expander button completely. the case showed no visible runout when spindle was removed. only when the spindle was in. Spindle is straight.. ( i've tried 3 different ones)
I have no means of measuring runout (no gadget)
But in this case I don't neeed to. the runout is so much I can see it by rolling the cases over a black glas surface. It is absolutely more than just ,005". And it is definetly Neck runout, not just an out of round case.
I will try your suggestion, concerning spindle& decapping pin adjustment.
The expander ball has allready been polished.
But if the trick is to get the spindle as stiff as possible.. how come I get no runout in cases that has been resized with my free swinging pendulum like spindle/expanderball. And how come It is made with a rubber washer in the top..?
Funny huh..!

Have you had any expierience with this problem in Forster bench rest dies..?

thanks again
Niels

I have not used the Forster dies, and was not aware of the rubber washer you mention.

Yes, if you can see the runout by rolling the cartridges, it is excessive. I used to roll them on a mirror and watch the bullet tips. This allows you to see an even smaller degree of runout.

However...

Some bullets will have a bit of wobble at or near the tip even though the main shank of the bullet is straight. This isn't always the case, and of course isn't preferable, but I've seen it. Polymer tipped bullets will exhibit this (I have some Hornady AMAX 178 grainers that do this). If the box of bullets has been dropped or otherwise mishandled the tips can get crooked. Sierra recently shipped me a replacement box of 165 grain Gamekings because the box I had had been dropped hard, and many of the bullets had bent tips. (That's killer customer service on Sierra's part, BTW, as the problem wasn't even theirs...)

If you can get access to a concentricity gauge, check the bullet's runout about .20" to .30" from the case mouth. You may find that all is well after all.

How do we know this isn't a seating issue, as opposed to a neck concentricity issue? Can you actually see neck "wobble" before seating the bullet, or are you seeing the runout only after seating the bullet? You can often "float" the seating pilot (in the same way you mention floating the expander pilot) with good results.

But here's the 20K buck question: How do these loads perform? And perhaps more importantly, has this recipe ever worked well in your rifle?

I assume you're loading for the .270 Winchester. Correct me if I'm wrong.

If so, try either of the following recipes for what should be an MOA or better load:

55 grains of IMR 4350 with 130 grain bullet.

60 grains of H4831 with 130 grain bullet. (Test loads at 58 and 59 grains for pressure).

Use CCI or Federal primers. I've not had good luck with the Winchester primers.

As far as your question as to how the loose expander ball worked for you, I'm not sure. It would seem that if that was going to work, loosening the original pilot would have worked as well.

Do try the deeper seating of the expander ball, and since it is polished I would try to eliminate the lube inside the neck. It's possible that the lube itself is adversely affecting things. I just brush the powder or tumbling residue out of the case necks and have no trouble getting the expander ball to pull back through.

Keep me posted...

Dan Newberry
green 788

Since you are getting good results without the expander button; and with the spindle floating and the expander button able to self-center; and bad results when it is held tight it sounds like something is causing the expander button to move off-center as it goes through the case neck.
Do you have this problem with other caliber dies on this press? Is the press ram moving off center during the stroke?
I doubt that you would get two bad dies in a row from Forster, but I guess it's possible if someone did a bad setup on the machines during manufacture. Are the spindle threads in the die body concentric with the die body? Are the spindles threads concentric with the expanding button? Since you have two dies, have you called Forster and returned one? They should be able to check it to see if there is a problem.
Obviously from your description something is causing the expander button to be off-center as it goes through the case neck, finding out what can be a problem. You need to be able to find out if the expander button is concentric with the die body when it's in the die body; but this is difficult to measure.

A setup trick you might try is with the spindle lock nut loose, size a case and when the expander button is just starting to enter the neck of the case on it's way up out of the case, tighten the locknut. You are trying to use the freshly sized and hopefully concentric case neck to hold the expander button and spindle on-center as the locknut is tightened. This should give you a concentric neck after it is expanded.

[ 08-10-2002, 01:10: Message edited by: CMcDermott ]

You might try free floating your shellholder.
Remove the clip that holds in the shellholder and replace it with an rubber O-ring. This allows the case to find its own center in the die.

ZM

Would an elliptical expander ball solve the problem by not putting so much strain on the case neck?

Rusty
We band of brothers!

Hi Everybody
Thank you for brainstorming.
In case some of you wondered where I have been after posting the question..I�ve been away, kanoing with my daughter..
To Dan: The wobble is in case neck without the bullet seated, so it is not a seating issue.
A deeper seating of the expanderball can�t be done. Forsters dies are made with a raised ball situated just before the neck. That is ment to control the concentricity to some degree, (but not for me, it seems).
Unfortunatedly the Powders you suggest aren�t available in Denmark�

To Cmcdermott: I think I will have to check the press ram for straightness it is about the only thing I haven�t checked yet.
Your suggested set up trick has been tried, but with little or no effect.

To Zeke: Just like free floating the caseholder had little or no effect. I have also tried turning the case � a turn and sizing again, same when seating

To Rusty: Maybe an elliptic ball will help, but I�m not sure there is any drag to be concerned about, so far, I have polished the ball and clean and lube the case necks thoroughly.
I�ll try redding dies, if it isn�t the ram�. They make �em without the expanderball.

Has any of you or anyone else out there had expierience with Forster dies and run into the problem I've described?

I really would be happy If someone could pinpoint the problem. I'm going to Scotland to hunt reddeer
in october and it would be nice to arrive with straight cases...
Thanks for your time on the matter.

K&B
Niels

A bit of lube in the case neck may help. I touch the case mouth to the lube pad to get some lube in the neck, which is then picked up by the expander ball. This eases the strain on the neck and tends to make things more concentric.

Two ways I have solved this in the past. One, throw away the f/l die and replace with redding body die and Lee collet die.

Second, throw away the expander ball, and after sizing the cases, expand the necks in a separate step using a Lyman "M" die.

Both methods work, but require you to run the case through the sizing cycle twice, which is no fun. But any time you size the neck substantially (say, more than .006), runout gets very hard to avoid, even with bushing dies. HTH, Dutch.

I would second Dutch, I wouldn't F/L resize until it is absolutely mandatory and would use the Lee collet die. The die has worked wonders for me. For the money it is well worth it. C

Niels, Thanks for the update. It's nice to see someone actually come back and let the respondents know what did or didn't work...

Here's where we are, I suppose:

The press is fine. If it weren't, your loads in other calibers would be flawed.

Regarding the shell holder, as mentioned by Zeke. Has this shell holder been used to create straight ammo for any other caliber? If the shell holder has a flaw, it could pull the cases out in a skewed line. That's worth checking out. Use your calipers to check the integrity of the shell holder. As it pulls the case from the die, it must pull evenly on both sides of the rim, or the case will tilt and cause the problem you're having.

I do think that eliminating the cases as the problem would be a good thing to do. Do you have any cases with other headstamps, even borrowed from a friend, that you can test? This is the necessary next step.

Your tests with the different spindles indicate to me that the loading die is not the problem. By the time the expander ball engages the inside of the case mouth, the main body of the die isn't touching the case. The cases came out straight with the expander button removed, so again that indicates to me that the problem isn't with the die body.

The fact that you're having trouble with the second die set is further indication that the die isn't the problem.

You either have a bad shellholder, or faulty brass. I'm thinking that the case mouth thickness is the most likely suspect. If you'll look at the case mouth thickness, you may be able to see that the cases are thicker on one side than the other. When the expander ball pulls through, the case mouth is being pulled to one side or the other.

One other thought: If you're not fully sizing the cases, you may want to try that. It's possible (though not likely) that the rifle's chamber is very slightly egg shaped, and since you're rolling the cases to check concentricity, if a portion of the case isn't being sized, and is out of round, it could cause the neck wobble you're seeing.

Check out a different batch of brass and post back.

Thanks again for the update,

Dan Newberry
green 788

Hi Dan. Thanks again for your reply.
This time I was away hunting....

It is not the brass I am using that is particularly bad, I just ran a couple of Federal nickelplated through and the same wobble was seen. I have been both f/l sizing and neck sizing with this die.
The Brass isn�t egg shaped after being fired. I checked. And to be totally honest I would have been very disappointed with Sako if it was.
I am buying another Case holder just to check. It hasn�t been used for any other brass yet.
It might be a crooked press I am checking that out as well. The other caliber I have been sizing with it are of a shape that makes it hard to see any wobble. (9,3x74R)

To Carnivore: (that�s meateater isn�t it?? ) I have been full length resizing and neck sizing same problem occurred. I full length size all hunting ammo except varmint loads.

To Dutch. I will try a Redding bushing die some time, I don�t know the collet die. But it doesn�t seem right to buy a brand new Forster die and not be able to make any straight ammo at all. I was emailed the suggestion, from another helpfull guy, that I should try and neck turn my cases. That might solve the problem too, but still it doesn�t seem right that I have to turn the cases to get straight ammo from a die.
The cases are premium grade brass to begin with.

K&B
Niels

Just got from golf league (having had a few beers and shouldn't post but here I go). Scanned most posts. In my opinion you CANNOT BEGIN TO SOLVE RUNNOUT problems without a runnout measuring device like a case master. I have many dies in many calibers--foresters are definately among the best. BUT the expander spindle MUST BE centered in the die for best runnout (just like any die). Foresters have a BIG HEADSTART in that the expander ball is centered high in the die. When you talk runnout you are talking about thousanths of an inch. The expander spindle must be "tuned" by making small turns until you find a "sweetspot" where it is centered in the die. To do this you have to have a runnout measuring tool and you have to make turns of about 1/20 of a revolution on the expander spindle. Then you have to resize some brass and check runnout. Then you keep repeating until you have very little runnout of a sized case. YOU CANNOT VISUALLY LOOK AT OR ROLL A SIZED CASE AND RECOGNIZE RUNNOUT. Your eyes will pick up slightly "uneven" case mouth chamfering and think the resized case is out of round. DO NOT EVEN THINK YOU CAN TACKLE THIS WITHOUT A MEASURING TOOL. Good luck--time to go to bed.

I wonder what the actual results are from this .270 die in terms of diameters? It's possible that the die is reducing the diameter a little too much and even the expanding button is too large a diameter and the result of either could be working the neck beyond it's yield strength with an uneven result. This is common with the .22 Hornet for instance due to the very thin necks and over agressive dies.

The other comment is about inside case lube. But the author here says the cases are even over lubed but I am not sure he means the inside of the case neck. I lube my case necks with grease and then wipe them out. Proper lubrication is called full film lubrication. That's when the opposing surfaces ride on a film of lubricant. When the surfaces touch it's called boundry lubrication. It's difficult to get even results with a lot of drag. It's done in metal drawing but in controlled situations.

I second the comment above on a device that measures runout. The RCBS Case Master costs $66 from mailorder and like a compass in the fog it and only it will tell you where your headed.

I'll third it! The RCBS Casemaster is an excellent investment. I know folks who have hellaciously expensive die sets, and no concentricity gauge! Even with the world's most expensive dies, if you "implement flawed implements," well, you ain't gonna end up with the proverbial silk purse. And you'll have screwed up a perfectly good pig's ear that your dog might have enjoyed. (Don I don't even have the excuse of a few brews under the belt, I think it's just early and I haven't had enough coffee... )

And as Kraky says, there's no way to know without the tool to tell you...

I don't remember if I mentioned it above or not, but it's very possible that the bullet tips are a shade wobbly. I've seen this many, many times, and even on some premium bullets whose names I won't mention but whose initials are Nosler and Sierra!

The concentricity gauge is a very worthwhile investment.

Kraky,

Thanks so much for the tip on adjusting the expander spindle in small increments until it centers. Brilliant and obvious! I'll have to try that on an old set of Pacific 30-06 dies I have.

Take care to all. And Niels, thanks for keeping us out of the dark. We look forward to hearing how the problem is eventually resolved. Post back when you can...

Dan Newberry
green 788

ONE LAST TIP--(as long as you liked the one about centering the spindle in the die). Once you have a die set "perfect" never touch the lock ring again if possible. Sinclair and others have a shim kit called "skips shims" They are very thin washers that go under your sizing die. You get about 8-10 washers in a kit and they vary from about .002"-.009" and if necessary you can stack them under the die to change headspace for different rifles. THE SWEET THING IS THE KIT SELLS FOR ABOUT $7.00! I have several rifles of the same caliber and can easily keep headspace in line between them by adding a shim for this rifle or that. Its a great kit used in combo with a stoney point headspace checking kit.

Newbie question: What is runout? A lack of concentricity in the neck?

Howdy Niels,

I use Forster dies almost exclusively, and while I agree with the other folks on this thread, let me add my experience. I have never found a bad Forster die, but I haven't tried them all either. My best advice to you would be two fold: 1) get a runout gage of some kind. All are good, mine is RCBS. 2) call or email Forster directly!!! Tell them the problem. In my experience, they will either have the right answer quickly, or will ask you to send them the die for replacement.
Hope this helps.
Good shooting.
Coach

Hi everybody.
Just to make sure, that I am not misunderstood.
I did not intend to hang Forster products out to dry. I only mentioned that I had a problem with a Forster die, because Forster dies are constructed a little differently than common dies.
(expander button just below the neck of the die body)

How ever It seems that no one else has had the experiences with This type of die, that I have had, so I have to conclude that the problem does not originate from the the die itself and look for the problem elsewhere in the press setup.

There has been responses that suggested that it might be the press and or the caseholder. (that things where not aligned.)
Also there has been advice on to how to adjust the die for optimum alignment. This and all your other responses are very much welcomed. Thank you.

K&B

Niels