Hi there...
I attempted to load some match-grade ammo today for my .223 Rem. Tikka rifle (which is capable of 0.5MOA with good factory ammo). This is the first attempt I've made at highly accurate loads for the .223 Rem. cartridge, previously I've messed around a bit with "quick and dirty" loads for my AR without much case prep or precise measurement of the resulting cartridges.

I started out by using recent manufacture, once fired Lake City brass that had been deprimed before cleaning and tumbling, then carefully sorted and segregated (by weight and neck runout) from a batch of over 100 cases to only 12 select cases. Anyway, everything went PERFECTLY during all the various case prep steps, which included sizing, trimming, 30 Deg. neck I.D. chamfering, uniforming flashholes, cleaning primer pockets, outside chamfering, etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum.

The final step was, of course, seating bullets... and that's where I ran into problems. The loads I was putting together are 69gr. Sierra BTHP Matchkings over 23, 24, 25, and 26 grains of Varget (3 cartridges of each weight - to get a rough idea of how they group). I used a comparator and modified case to figure out at what point the bullets touch the lands in my Tikka, then backed off 0.030" (I wanted to back off only 0.020", but the bullets would be too long to fit in the magazine with that length!).

The problem occured after I seated the bullets. I put the finished cartridges on my spin jig, and found that I was getting a MINIMUM of 0.002", and more typically around 0.005" of runout when measured about 2/3 up the bullet ogive toward the tip. One cartridge even had a measured runout of 0.006"! This is from a batch of segregated cases that measured a MAXIMUM of 0.001" of runout at the case neck before seating bullets in them!

I'm extremely disappointed with this level of runout in the final seated bullets. I did everything that I could in case prep to insure that I would end up with the most precise cartridges possible... and this last step just seems to have undone all that hard work!
Do I need a better seating die? Can I blame my Hornady seater die for this, or is there some technique I need to learn when loading smaller caliber cartridges? I don't ever remember having this kind of problem with my .243 Win., .260 Rem., or 7.5 Swiss loads... is there some phenomenon going on here that is more pronounced with smaller caliber cartridges? Or have I just been lucky to get good seater dies for those other cartidges and unlucky with my .223 Rem. die set?

Very confused.

Although the sizing operation (in particular with an expander) is normally considered the largest contributor to run-out, the seating operation can also contribute some...

I have heard all sorts of suggestions for remedies: turn necks to ensure consistent neck wall thickness, use a seater (such as Forster or Redding Competition) supporting the entire case during seating, or seat the bullet in 2-3 steps while indexing the round between each (partial) seating operation.

Which will work for you?? I don't know, and you'll probably need to experiment a bit to find out. I would probably try indexing rounds during seating, then a Forster seater.

Another issue is that not all guns react to runout. Shoot your rounds and see if you get good results, if yes, don't worry too much about it. I understand the attraction of getting everything "perfect" before you go to the range. After all, if range results are not what you had hoped for, at least you don't have to worry about imperfections in your loading setup. Still, it may not matter in practice...

If you are willing to load into the lands (can be a problem if you need to remove a live round from the gun, and you have to watch your pressure), that nomally gets rid of any effect run-out may have had.

- mike

I agree with mho in that the sizing process is the biggest part of bullet runout. The best seating die in the world can't fix an imprperly sized piece of brass. There are many dies and techniques that will help reduce runout. Maybe this will help.
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f28/how-can-i-mi...bullet-runout-29542/

The trouble with most seaters, those of the standard or typical design, including Hornady's, often have bullet throats significantly over bullet diameter. Than not only contributes to bullets seating cock-eyed, it almost guaranties it!

The only seaters I am aware of that seem to hold tighter tolerances in that critical diameter are the BR/Competition sleeve dies from Redding and Forster.

Not sure, of course, how you are measuring runout but it sounds like you are giving us the total indicated runout (TIR) which is actually double the real runout.

Its not a huge amount of loads. Try them and see what happens with the groups. The cases will also be fire formed for the next experiment.

also check the runout on the case neck now that it is loaded see if they are still round.

A suggestion: I seat the bullets half-way, turn the cartridge 180 degrees and finish seating. I've found this reduces runout.
The last three replies also are good advice.

prof242, I read that some time back that and tried it to little avail. Wonder, how much runout reduction did you see, and what brand of seater die did you have success with?

I tried seating half way then checked runout, turned it half way around, completed seating and checked again. Found my runout was essentially unchanged and remained in the same direction as at first. Seems my RCBS, Lyman and Hornady seater die's stems are so loosely fitted in the die body they have little leverage to correct any initial seating error!

Update:
I shot all the loaded cartridges yesterday, and I'm not sure how much effect the runout is actually having on group size. All groups came in sub-MOA, with the best group (0.3" at 100 yds. - the load with 24.0 gr. Varget) included the cartridge that had the worst runout!
Must experiment more.

Gaillo.......When you fire your not-so-crooked reloads, you are eliminating runout by evenly applying about 50 to 60 thousand pounds per square inch straightening pressure.......
Don't worry about it! Grant.

I do the seat half way and then turn 180 and finish routine myself. I'm glad to hear it doesn't help because now I'll quit.
I guess it's like we used to say back in the Corps, "don't sweat the petty s**t.." I do believe we can get too anal about some of this stuff.

"I do the seat half way and then turn 180 and finish routine myself. I'm glad to hear it doesn't help because now I'll quit."

Whoa, Bee, don't quit because of my limited experience! Didn't say it doesn't help, just said it didn't help ME! Lots of things may seem like good ideas but they must be proven on a concentricty gage before I can accept it as true. And some things help some folks but not others due to equipment tolerances, skill level, etc. All we can do is try something and see IF it helps us or not.