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Today I really had the chance to look a little closer at the 308 Winchester, by loading some rounds for a guy, that is shooting them in a Tactical Savage Rifle... We were duplicating the Federal Premium loads, with the 168 Grain Sierra... While loading them, I realized once again, why I have never purchased a 308, even tho I have shot them in the M 60s while in the service... A 308 isn't going to be an 06.... At the same time tho, I love the 308 case... but if it is chambered in something smaller in bore diameter, like 243, or 260 or 7/08.. I shoot the 243 and the 260 a lot, and have played with the 7/08 a little...What I can't figure out is why the military spends so much time with the 308, and moving into the 300 Win Mag also, when they can accomplish the same things in a 6.5 mm bore, like the 260 Rem, or the 7mm bore with the 7/08... They can accomplish it with less recoil, and in my opinion a bullet that can fly further having more MV to start off with than a 168 grainer from a 308... The guy I was handloading these for, is a Navy Seal, that is getting ready to deploy to Iraq.. He is telling me, rightfully so I gather, that they are not allowed to assemble their own loads in a military rifle... but he has a Savage that he likes to practice with on his own time...He states that he is a sniper... I am just taking his word for it.. seems like a nice and honest guy... But I have to admit.. after handloading the 308 for him and shooting some of the handloads., the accuracy is there... but for my money, I'd take a 260 Rem or a 7/08 Rem anyday for that type of work...or just plain, long range target work... I also don't understand why the Military is looking at the 300 Winchester, when the 300 WSM is a more efficient round...and the 7mmWSM is even better... I am either just too practical.. or the military just doesn't like to look at a bore than is measured in Milimeters, although they don't like to say 30 caliber, they like to say 7.62 mm.. go figure.. | ||
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Well, on paper the .308 doesn't measure up to just about anything. On the other hand, regardless, you wouldn't want to get hit with one. Marking targets at 900 yards I was always impressed with the sonic crack and a great thump as the 155gr bullet hit the backstop. The .223's on the other hand just plunked in. A friend always takes his "lucky" .308 Walther rifle for Red deer, and they just don't die any deader than dead. As for the Military, well, lets face it, who knows how they come up with their ideas. But once they got the .308, it does the job, and they can't chop and change as quickly as us. Even so, I've had 3 .308's and wouldn't feel inferior to anyone using something else.  | |||
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It depends what you're trying to accomplish. If you look at retained energy at 600 to 1,000 yards, which would be sniping range, it will probably be more clear what the advangates of 168 gr. bullets propelled by a 300 Win. Mag. or 308 Win. are. Also, it's not just the 300 Win. Mag. the military is moving in to. There's the 338 Lapua, the 408 CheyTac and the 50 BMG that are used for sniping. | |||
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The 308 had to fill myriad requirements. You're looking at it from a deliberate aimed fire point of view in easy surroundings. Think of assault weapons, high rates of fire, throat wear, poor cleaning regimes whihc don't feature ANY metallic fouling cleaning, the requirement to carry large amounts of ammunition, remain supersonic at long range, have the minimum possible propensity for pressure excursions, possible partialy blocked barrels etc etc etc and you see that the 308 was a darn good take on a general purpose round in the early 50s. | |||
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There is a good article on this topic in the latest issue of "Special Weapons" magazine. (http://www.harrisoutdoorgroup.com/specialweapons.html) The author offers up the Alexander Arms 6.5 Grendel cartridge as an "all purpose" military round. ~Marc | |||
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I shoot a 308 in High Power Unlimited.At 1000 yds. it lacks nothing.Also the 300 Win mag is a known super accurate round.The Military doesn`t change just because there is a new kid on the block.They put a lot of time into developing a accurate round and will not abanden it soon.It doesnt make sense to keep reinventing the wheel if it doesnt do anything differnt. (My Opinion)  | |||
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seafire I totally agree, I bought a 308, because its what everyone else used, without looking what it can do ballistically first, There are much better rounds for distance shooting, the 308 works, but in real world applications flatter shooting cartridges like the 270 simply outclass it as an in the field hunting round. shooting higher BC bullets much faster. its one thing to shoot something at a known range like the target guys do, and its another ball game shooting up or down hill at guessed ranges. I think something in the 6.5 bore cannot be beat overall. but for some reason everyone buys what the military uses thinking it has some god like quaility even take a look at AR rifles on AR15.com most are clones of what the military uses, thats just what people want in times when one needs a rifle, he tends to need it very badly.....PHC | |||
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I'll take a .308 up to 800 yd. any time . If I really want to reach out long distance .338 Lapua mag !. If it were practical I'd use a .50 Cal. !. That does a little more than bang the gong at 1000 - 1500 yd. . In my case can't own one !. Demographic availability problems !. Expensive to shoot to boot !. ...  | |||
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Bart Bobbit chronicles in rec.guns posts, the transition from 30-06 to .308 at Camp Perry, where he competed. The "inferior" accuracy of the 30-06 is something most of us would love to get.
I would love to shoot 5 or 6 inches at 600y. | |||
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Come out to a Highpower Rifle Match. Or better, come out to the National Matches at Camp Perry. There are people there who are very very good and they will shoot most of their 20 shot string into the X ring. Which is about 6 inches. With a AR! I have been at a 500 yard match where a Long Range Champ put, with a 7mm-08, all of his 20 rounds in the X ring. That was most excellent. However 600 yards is about 300 yards further from the bull than 500 yards, (really seems like it) so I expect a perfect 20 X group happens about as often as pitching a no hitter. And all of this is prone with a sling, using iron sights. | |||
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Thinking about when they adopted it, Thinking about what it accomplished, Thinking about have the logistics for all the different ammunition, I am sure the military doesn’t care that you are unimpressed.  Honestly, I own a couple 308s, they work for what I need to do. If you can’t judge distance and need something that shoots flatter, then buy something that shoots flatter. The military doesn’t have this problem. If you need something that shoots longer range, I would suggest gunning up to a 338Lapua, 408CH, or even 50BMG. (I really need a 50BMG.  ) As far as people wanting what the military is using. If it works…use it. I have a couple of military styled rifles and pistols. The great think about using an AR is that it is totally configurable. And because it is so popular, I can get parts in almost any configuration. Reloading components are cheaper, loaded ammo is cheaper. I have small piles of 5.56x45, 7.62x39 and 7.62x51. I can buy it cheap in bulk because they are military cartridges. If I lived 100 years ago, I would have 45-70s and 30-06 (Hmm I have a 45-70 and a 30-06, but I digress.) As far as your seal that says he can’t use his own reloads, I don’t know about the seals. I do know that the US Army Snipers have been known to make their own reloads. CISSP, CISA, CRISC looking for a IT Security/Audit Manager spot | |||
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Well, even tho the military doesn't care what I think.. I am not overly bothered what they think of my opinion either... I have shot the 308s, in M 60s in the military... in fact I was one of the few guys in my unit that could engage targets pretty consistently with them out to about 1300 meters...when stationed at Ft Sill... I outshot a lot of other guys with it while in the guard also, which pissed a lot of them off, because I was in the medical corp... I know it will get the job done.. but when I go out and shoot, I sure like shooting the 260 Rem a lot more.. a 120 grain or 142 grain Match bullet, just really do a good job, out to 1000 meters in my humble opinion...... Well the military isn't going to change because of my opinions anyway, but I ain't rushing out to buy no 308 anytime soon either... But I do have a 7/08 barrel in my near future... | |||
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Couldn't disagree more. I have two .308s and there are my favorite. Gee they are both super accurate, I have a huge selection of factory ammo...and they will handle everything in NA except for big bears out to 250 yds... Of course may lots of other folks consistently shoot at game beyond 250 yds Mike Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I have a 308 because I found a deal on a pre 64 featherweight in 308. Now I realy like it. I have a nice 165gr load worked up and just got back from the range trying some 185 lapua megas. I was pleased with the trajectory, wasnt much different at 100yds and 200 yds than my 165gr load, in fact it was realy close | |||
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You were in that Arm Pit of an Army Base ?. seafire/B17G I have shot the 308s, in M 60s in the military... in fact I was one of the few guys in my unit that could engage targets pretty consistently with them out to about 1300 meters...when stationed at Ft Sill... Then you must know where the 3 Arm pits of the World are or were !. Ft. Polk LA. Ft. Sill OK . and Viet Nam !. Nothing wrong with .308's worked well for swing guns in Hueys as well as platoon Lt machine Guns . Come to think of it I seem to remember loading them in Puff up Pleiku way ; when I wasn't spotting or demolishing something or other . | |||
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Weelll, I ain't never been in no combat myself but have seen a lot of GI movies! I don't think the bad guys are going to be exposed very often or very long so most infantry shots are made at people behind some kind of cover. I'd much rather have a full patch 7.62 ball than the 5.56, or even the 6.5 or 7mm for punching through walls, sand bags, trees, autos, etc. No matter how little a smaller round kicks or how well it groups, it is much more important to get through the target's protective cover. A bigger slug wins that test every time! | |||
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I've been totally unimpressed with the 308 ever since I bought one in 1975. I aim at stuff and it hits it. Day in and day out just the same old thing. If it was alive when I aimed it's dead after the shot. Boring!! Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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I'm not going to necessarily agree with that statement. A while back, I ran a test of 180 gr. Silvertip ammo in a 22" barreled .308 Win. amd a 30-06 rifle with the same barrel length. Guess waht? The 30-06 was only, I repeat only 10 FPS faster than the .308. igt was a bit better in a 24" barreled rifle and finally came close to advertized specs in a 26" barreled Ruger #1. I recently read an article on the .300 H&H Magnum by Wayne van Zwoll (May-June 1994 #153) where on page 36, second paragraph down he states, and I quote, "Some shooters maintain a .300 H&H offers no more from it's muzzle than a 30-06 having a good ay, but logic and chronograhps show otherwise. Standard claimed velocity for 180 grain loads is 2,700 FPS, THOUGH FACTORY LOADS I HAVE CLOCKED STAY NEARER 2,600. (emphasis mine, not meant to be a shout. I can't get the bold function to work.) I can load the 30-06 to 2,750 about as easily as I can the .30 Super to 2,950 in same length barrels. It's like the same old BS that a .308 is no good with 200 and 220 gr. bullets.  Let's see now, if a 30-06 can do 2400 FPS with a 220 gr. bullet, that is if it does really go that fast, then why wouldn't a .308 pushing that same bullet at 2300 FPS not work? If it is true when people say that 100 FPS doesn't make any difference to the game animal,  then why wouldn't it work?Right after the 30-06 came on the scene and into civilian hands, the 30-40 Krag at 2000 FPS was considered a better elk rifle than the 30-06, primarily because the bullets of the day couldn't stand up to the 06's velocity. However, all that is irrelevant to the reasons behind the conception of the .308. The military wanted a round that would be more compatable with full and semi automatic arms that would still deliver the power of the 150 gr. bullet as loaded by the military. In that concept, they succeeded quite well. Winchester liked the round so well that they asked for and got the military's permission to make a sporting round from it. In that aspect, they also succeeded quite well. I like the .308, and for 99 percent of my hunting and shooting needs, it is just fine. That does not mean I've given up on the 30-06 or .300 Win. mag. To the contrary. I'm just saying that the .308 is just fine for my needs. Paul B. | |||
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The .308 is very nearly a rimless version of the 7.62x54R, so much so that the .308 or 7.62 NATO cartridge (sometimes with a strip of foil around the base) has many times been used as an expedient in Mosin-Nagants. The Russian 7.62mm round has been in service since 1891. As has been said, if something works well enough, why change a good thing? "A cheerful heart is good medicine." | |||
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Escaped Nam, and wasn't stationed at Ft Polk, but have passed thru there..  And Ft Sill...we shudda given it back to the Indians! | |||
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That is precisely the only thing wrong with a .308Win. Some people just NEED a 7.699 superwissbangerbeltedmagnum.  | |||
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OR a 260 Remington!!!!  | |||
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Gentlemen ; What ever the caliber , if it works don't fix it !. I believe Teddy summed it up best . The only interesting weapon is an accurate one !. ... | |||
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Over the years, I have had the opportunity to examine the wound channels left in game animals from 150 to 200-grain .308" bullets fired from both .308 Winchesters and .30/'06's, and damned if I could tell which was which. So, perhaps "the .308 is no .30/'06", but it kills like it was! (BTW, the Army has a lot of places that are worse than Ft. Sill!) "Bitte, trinks du nicht das Wasser. Dahin haben die Kuhen gesheissen." | |||
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El Deguello (BTW, the Army has a lot of places that are worse than Ft. Sill!) Then they should fill those holes in as well !. I'll never forget my DI informed us there would be no calisthenics when it got over 100 !. Well a couple of weeks later it was 105 . We finished up our routine of calisthenics , I inquired to the Sgt. What happen to the 100 rule ?. He then informed me that was for HUMIDITY Stupid !. The standing joke that wasn't funny at Ft. Polk was , Never take a shower or other wise you'll never dry off !. That was true !. As far as Ft. Sill I never realized it could be that hot and that humid !. Least wise until my tour of South East Asia any way !... | |||
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