I made a batch of rounds and shot them at the range today.
The cartridges will lock down and shoot good groups but don’t eject, they stay up in the chamber until I cycle the bolt again a second time to pull them out.
I also noticed that the primers are backing out of the seat, but not flattened after firing.
(More like bubble out past the head surface)

My load is 54 grains of R15 and 200 grain Hornady SP interlocks.
35 Whelen
My reloads average between,
3.132 to 3.137 “OALâ€
I measured Remington factory 200 Grain PSP and they average between,
3.144 to 3.147 “OALâ€

The Lyman 48th addition Manual OAL listed is (3.340) which is much longer than my bore.

Any help….with this situation?

I looked up steves reloading page and it looks like your useing the lowest start load for that powder,I think thats why the primer is kinda bubbleing outward instead of flatting,May want to check out his recommendations for that powder and stoke it up a little maybe will help out,it looks like your long ways from max...i dont understand why the brass will not pull out,are you shooting a push feed action and the rim is just not catching maybe like it should with this brass?Might have a weak/worn extracter?Anyways good luck and let us know what you find out.... steves pages

It's a Remington 700 Classic the rifle and bolt is in real good shape. the max load listed is 60 Grains of R15 for this load.

I trimmed the case with the Lee cutter and gauge, can the cases be too short?

you may have pushed the shoulder back too far
causing excessive head space. the firing pin is actualy knocking the cartridge forward away from the bolt and when fired the primmer it is backing out and when you shove the bolt back in it is re seating the primer alowing the extractor to grab the hull..

My guess is that your 54gr of R-15 is causing LOW pressure allowing the primers to back out.

Do factory loads eject properly?

Ditto on what Greyghost said.

So the firing pin is pushing the case so far forward that the primer can back out?

The ammo is so wimpy it does not slide back with pressure and re seat the primer?

But jamming the bolt forward a second time partially seats the primer and hooks the extractor on the rim?

Quickload thinks that load is 19.8 kpsi 1873 fps.

I suppose that could happen, without enough pressure to slide or stretch the brass.
Doesn't say much for the Rem700 extractor.

I know that putting 357 mag bullets and 10 gr of pistol powder in a 35W 1909 Mauser, the pressure is just as low, and the cases always extract.

Try to take a cleaning rod and knock the brass out after fireing and see what the spent primer looks like??

Use a couple of grains more powder and it will go away. This happens in a 7mm-08 i have and I just deal with it as the load shoots about a 1/2" at 100 yards and it's like a pop gun when going off.

vinnyg,
The backed out primers are from your light loads. The firing pin drives the cartridge ahead and there isn't enough pressure to slam it back and reseat the primer. That tiny 35 Whelen shoulder adds to the problem. As long as you continue to use the light loads things will be OK, but the cartridge has excessive headspace when it is loaded again.Load them up hot and that excess headspace will result in the cases stretching to fit, and most likely some parted cases, probably sooner than later. Been there, done that, lost a pile of .35 Whelen brass and threw a bunch more away.

Do factory loads eject properly?[/QUOTE]

Yes the Factory loads act fine..

Vin

Wow, Thanks guys,
I always thought that when you bolt up a round in the chamber that the cartridge is flush against the bolt face holding the rear of the case.

But I thought that if you see a flattened primer that is sign of high pressure?
If it gets reseated from the blast and stretching then of course it will flatten, right?

As a new reloader I’m being very cautious and using the starting loads listed but it’s obvious that they are too light.
What starting grains should I use if 10% is too low?
Vinny

Hey Vinny,fill your boots here powder loads

The Greyghost also mentioned the possability that the shoulder may be pushed back too far. Don't forget to check this. If the shoulder is in the right place, the firing pin cannot push the case forward AND the load will be much more accurate. Simply increasing the powder charge will fix the extraction problem but the cartridge may still "rattle around" in the chamber.

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:
vinnyg,
..... the cartridge has excessive headspace when it is loaded again.Load them up hot and that excess headspace will result in the cases stretching to fit, and most likely some parted cases, probably sooner than later. Been there, done that, lost a pile of .35 Whelen brass and threw a bunch more away.

Those head separations can be avoided by lubing the loaded cartridges before firing. This allows the case to elongate and break away (creap) from the chamber wall progressively from the shoulder to the case head. The neck will not slide. Without lube, that break away might occur just ahead of the web and cause the separation. (Even a case with the insipient separation ring will survive further firings if lubed - at least mine did when put to the test). Apparently, lack of lube can absorb up to 10% of the thrust normally reserved for the bolt face (in the 308). That percentage would be less in a higher intensity cartridge - unless the case is much stronger.

quote:

Those head separations can be avoided by lubing the loaded cartridges before firing.

This is a very good suggestion any time you are firing a new batch of brass for the first time.
For those rear locking actions this may be the only way to keep the heads from pulling off.
Only a 303 shooter has seen so many separated heads....

I think blackbearhunter may be onto the problem-low pressures! The backed-out primers happen when the primer, at the instant of firing, exerts enough force on the bolt face to actually reduce the cartridge's headspace somewhat by shoving the case forward in the chamber. Normally, when the burning powder charge develops sufficient pressure, the case head is slammed back against the bolt face again, re-seating the backed-out primer. In your case, there is insufficient pressure developed by the popwder charge to re-seat your primers (and apparently, when the primer backs out, it affects the grip of the extractor on the case as well, making it necessary for you to open annd reclose the bolt to extract the case.)

This phenomenon you describe is quite common with low-pressure ammunition such as cast-bullet loads.

Handloaders are cautioned to reserve brass used for such cast-bullet loads for re-use ONLY with low-pressure loads in the future, because the cases now have excessive headspace for re-use with high-pressure loads.

quote:

Originally posted by tnekkcc:
So the firing pin is pushing the case so far forward that the primer can back out?

No, the primer blast pushed the case forward.

quote:

The ammo is so wimpy it does not slide back with pressure and re seat the primer?

RIGHT!!

quote:

But jamming the bolt forward a second time partially seats the primer and hooks the extractor on the rim?

Actually, RE-HOOKS the extractor on the case rim.

quote:

Quickload thinks that load is 19.8 kpsi 1873 fps. I suppose that could happen, without enough pressure to slide or stretch the brass.
Doesn't say much for the Rem700 extractor.

NOPE!! It sure doesn't!!

quote:

I know that putting 357 mag bullets and 10 gr of pistol powder in a 35W 1909 Mauser, the pressure is just as low,and the cases always extract.

That's because that Mauser has that massive CRF extractor hook, which tends to hold the case back in place against the bolt face regardless! The M700 extractor hook doesn't have as much ability to retain the case against the breech face.

From what I can see Duck Hunter & Grey Ghost are the only ones to have positively IDed the probable main cause of your problem which seems to be too much headspace. I would say your're over resizing these cases. Back your full length dies back a tad till your're barely doing more than neck sizing & only screw it further in when cases get tight to chamber on subsequent loadings. It will take a bit of trial & error but will save you a heap of hassles & prolong case life into the bargain. With correct headspace, I doubt you'd notice any problems, even with your light loads.
Steve.

quote:

Originally posted by Shinzo:
From what I can see Duck Hunter & Grey Ghost are the only ones to have positively IDed the probable main cause of your problem which seems to be too much headspace. I would say your're over resizing these cases. Back your full length dies back a tad till your're barely doing more than neck sizing & only screw it further in when cases get tight to chamber on subsequent loadings. It will take a bit of trial & error but will save you a heap of hassles & prolong case life into the bargain. With correct headspace, I doubt you'd notice any problems, even with your light loads.
Steve.

It has been written before that some lots of factory brass for the .35 Whelen have a poorly formed shoulder that does not headspace well.
I doubt that he has a die problem but he may have been using new brass. Which still makes the oiled case suggestion a good one.

Fair call, I'm not familiar with that as a specific problem , 35 Whelans are a bit thin on the ground out here, in fact I've not ever handled one. I do load for the 338-06 & can see how the shoulder for a larger caliber could get marginal but I guess its poor manufacturing tolerances you're talking about in this case, maybe even just the time when the sum of all tolerances can work against one. Short of necking up to 40 cal & then reforming a tighter shoulder, I guess a load with a bit more grunt will at least take up the slack on the 1st firing albeit to the detriment of case life.
Steve

OK, guys are all right on target.
I’ve been a busy little bee with this situation so here it is:

First I ordered and received a new LEE 35 Whelen die set and moved the RCBS to the side because I did struggle with adjustments. I don’t like the Allen key in the locking ring and I don’t like a slotted screw driver adjustment with the nut on the sizer plug.

Second, They both state that the die should be screwed down and touch the shell holder and then a ¼ turn more in. Then pressing the cartridge up into the resizer die there should be no light seen between the shell holder and the die.
Obviously this is too much and Shinzo is right about it.

Third: to give you a history, the brass I have is once fired Remington Factory ammo shot from actually two Remington Model 700 classics one in which I do not have anymore. The ammo was 200 SP, 250 SP, and 250 RN about 400 spent rounds all together that I saved.

Forth, After some “more†research I felt compelled to order a L. E. Wilson Cartridge case gage in 35 Whelen. And will stock one for every hunting cartridge I load for now on.

Fifth: My first findings: I gauged the once fired “tumbled†brass as is and found that some were head space under minimum.
So you are all right by saying that they have excessive head space. Because the ones I loaded were all under minimum too, even though I trimmed them to the correct OAL the cone to head is no good. “I Thinkâ€
So, the once fired factory ammo brass really didn’t stretch after firing. And not consistent in the making.

Six: Some of my once fired brass do gauge perfectly in the L. E. Wilson gauge.
I put a couple through the press with the manufacturers instructions of a ¼ turn in more and they came out under minimum head space.

So I turned the die out some “back up†still full sizing the cases.
The ones that gauge good before now gauge good after.
“The cases that don’t gauge good before also don’t gauge good afterâ€
So I guess I’ll lose half of my brass, which sucks!

This time I not only lubed the outside cartridge case but put some on the inside mouth of the case for the sizer plug, but is that really necessary?

Vin

you are almost there . don't throw away your brass that the shoulder is too far back on just re-fireform it to your chamber.

OK then, for my own information, let's just say I have a rifle with excess headspace (same thing as 'undersized cases' right?). How would I go about fireforming new cases to suite?

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:
OK then, for my own information, let's just say I have a rifle with excess headspace (same thing as 'undersized cases' right?). How would I go about fireforming new cases to suite?

Neck it up to a larger caliber, I suggested 40 cal for the 35 Whelan in my post above & then resize back down to your chosen caliber, keeping your die backed off & trying in your chamber till it is just a crush fit then perhaps 1/8 turn more, maybe 1/4 if thats still too tight. I'd suggest that neck annealing prior to all this would be a good idea. This is what I would try to do if in this position, someone may have a better idea. I realise that the correct diameter expander might be the problem. I'm picking it might be possible to use a Lee decapping die with the decapping pin replaced by the appropriate caliber neck expander. They seem to have a very similar system of retaining this pins. Anyone?
Steve.

If you lightly oil the case it will push back and fill the shoulder out forward.
This avoids the strain ring you get when the
head pushes back.
Good luck!

quote:

Neck it up to a larger caliber, .... & then resize back down...

quote:

If you lightly oil the case it will push back and fill the shoulder out forward.
This avoids the strain ring you get when the
head pushes back.

Sizing up is do-able. With excess head-space, even with an oiled case which will correct the error, will there still be a problem with that case head slamming back onto the bolt face? I have seen an SMLE with known excess head-space, continued to be used and eventually jamming the bolt by peening the locking lug recesses. I did lube one of the guys cases but it still held forward, leaving the primer protruding (giving us a measurement of the excess head-space - his cases were not smooth and polished). Some of his cases held forward, some set back and some stretched at the pressure ring.

The oiled case will not slam the bolt.
What happens is; The primer pushes the case forward against the shoulder and pushes itself back against the bolt, The primer will protrude
by the amount of the headspace, After the pressure reaches a certain level (30-40 KPSI ?)
the base of the case will push back and stretch,
If the primer protruded enough it will be bulged
and "rivet" when it is reseated.
Once the case stretches back it applies the same force to the bolt oiled case or not. The oiled case moves back at lower pressure, and avoids the stretch mark.
Good Luck!

quote:

Originally posted by hawkins:
The oiled case will not slam the bolt.
What happens is; The primer pushes the case forward against the shoulder and pushes itself back against the bolt, The primer will protrude
by the amount of the headspace, After the pressure reaches a certain level (30-40 KPSI ?)
the base of the case will push back and stretch,
If the primer protruded enough it will be bulged
and "rivet" when it is reseated.
Once the case stretches back it applies the same force to the bolt oiled case or not. The oiled case moves back at lower pressure, and avoids the stretch mark.
Good Luck!

Although it might seem obvious, I would use an oiled case with no more that a start load as the oiling will increase the back thrust on the bolt face considerably. Much less than a start load & it may not have enough oomph to push itself back. For this reason I like the neck up & then neck down again scenario but then I've never tried it with oiled cases. Comments on loads used would be welcome, always happy to be corrected.
Steve

Once the case head starts to stretch back the brass has little tensile strength so the case
applies the same force oiled or not.
Ackley fired a 30/30 without a locking lug.
If he had oileds the case or increased the pressure it would have had a different outcome.
I think the reason the old timers used an oiled cartridge as a "proof" was that they were working with lower pressures and that was the only way to check the lockup.
Good Luck!

I have found that oiling the case does not reduce case grip much, just enough to stop case failure at the pressure ring. The case stretches elastically and 'creeps' progressively against the chamber wall, just like a clean, polished dry case would in a smooth chamber. The neck does not creep at all.

I believe what happens is that an oiled case comes back at once, then stretches forward.
That is why there is no stretch ring.
The stretch ring is caused by the case sticking forward and all the stretch occure where the brass begins to thicken.
The base dosen't expand to grab, and the
forward part of the case is stuck. All the force is applied to a narrow thin section of brass.
Good Luck!

quote:

I believe what happens is that an oiled case comes back at once, then stretches forward.

That's a thought. I do notice on my hornet cases that the slide marks are greater nearer the case base and progressively deminish toward the neck. In my rifles chamber, there are reamer rings which leave a witness on the case. The slide marks on the case are from those witness marks forward, suggesting that with my hornet at least, the case is elongating rearward. With a tight fitting case, even with no shoulder, that might make sense as the action itself elongates rearward. (Although, it is a stout action and a mild cartridge). Then again, what's to say those slide marks are not from the case being extracted? I can only say that in the 303 where the case remained forward, there were no slide marks and on cases that have 'failed', there were no stretch marks forward of the stretch ring. Also, I have found a definate load point at which permanent case elongation begins and elongation increases exponentially beyond that point, regardless of lubrication but is severe without lubrication (read stretch ring severe). The elongation point is much lower without lubrication.

quote: