How temperature stable are some of these surplus powders?

What do you mean by "temperature stable"?

I know from experience that WC-852(slow) is quite temperature sensitive.

"Surplus powders" cover a wide range of territory. Extruded, Ball, flake, double base, single. They don't differ greatly in their characteristics from comparable "commercial" powders. They were made by the same manufacturers, often to the same original specifications, and had to pass government acceptance inspections for military ammo loading.

i haven't seen any problems... no worse than the h414/win 780 that it probably is.

like all powders, if it's energy state is higher to begin with, it'll burn faster.... low, slower...

jeffe

rjn,

That is an interesting comment. I shoot the WC-852 (lot # 47287) and it is the �slow lot�. I have used it with the 7-30 Waters, 30-30 Winchester, and 270 Winchester cartridges using 4831 data. I can�t say that I have seen a temperature sensitivity problem. Now then, I didn�t chronograph each particular load at 0�F and then again at 80�F to see if the velocities/pressures noticeably changed, but for just general all around shooing at my shooting bench throughout the year, there have been no problems noted�

Dan Uplinger, (check your PM�s also)

I shoot WC-680, WC-852, WC-860, WC-844, WC-820, 5010-PD, SR-4759, AL-8, and AA#9S powders. All are surplus and I hope these surplus powders, or equivalents, stay available for many years down the road!!! I have NEVER had any problems with them as far a pressures go when used according to the data provided and when used with CONSERVATIVE starting loads and working upward. Good-luck�BCB

BCB you have a PM. Thanks for all the replys. Sorry I was so vague, I was most interested in the ball powders but wanted to know about all of them. Thanks again.

i would like to think that the are very "stable", which i take to mean "insensitive to the environment".

after all, these powders go into ammunition normally in advance of the outbreak of a war. it would be a real shame to have ammunition that could only be used under certain temperature conditions. if they were too sensitive, the military would have to have specific batches of ammunition to be used in specific climates. then, if a war spanned a year, they'd have to change out their ammunition during the seasonal changes. that'd be a helluva mess, wouldn't it...........

I guess I should have said temperature insensitive and not stable. I was just asking because of all the talk about the Hodgdon Extreme, and other powders, that are temperature insensitive being made now. From what I understand the powders being marketed by Ramshot are made by a company that originaly developed a temperature insensitive powder for a military contract. I also read that it was cleaner burning, than regular ball powders, for use in automatic weapons. I was just wondering if any of the surplus powders were as temperature insensitive as they were. Thanks again for all your help.

BCB,

I have two lots of WC852(slow), one of which is #47287. I ran test with 30-06 where I would compare fps when the shells were cold (~30F) and then after warming them up using body heat. They consistently picked up 100-200 fps. Another interesting test is to shoot 10 shells or so until rifle warms up. Put another shell in chamber and let 'cook' for several minutes. Here I did not measure FPS but the bullet printed 5" higher.

Another thing I noticed is this powder is more sensitive to tight chamber than normal. I shot a load in 03-A3 which has loose chamber which gave very mild pressure signs. The same load in Rem 700 gave very high pressure signs. My point is that WC852 seems to be a bit more extreme in its behavour to various parameters. I do get very good accuracy in several calibers so I live with its peculiarities. Besides you can't beat its prices...

rjn
please repeat this experiment with h414 or win 750.... or any other powder suitable and commercial.

you'll find the same results

jeffe

jeffeosso,

I do shoot Win760 in 30-06 and have not experienced the same degree of sensitivity. I have developed the belief that the slower the Ball Powder the more sensitive it is to temperature. I could be wrong here and would like to know what others have experienced.

It's important to note that the "slow" WC852 is powder that did not meet specifications and was rejected. WC852 is supposed to give identical ballistics with identical charge weight to IMR4895 in the M2 Ball .30-06 load. The slow lot that didn't turn out right is more comparable to 4831.

rjn,

Seems you�ve done your homework!!! I honestly have never done the �extreme� temperature thing with any powders that I shoot, be it canister grade or surplus. Yet, I don�t doubt that temperatures would add/subtract from pressures and thusly velocities. I have shot thousands of rounds using the surplus powders with NO problems. Probably because I load them most conservatively and really ain�t cranking any of the loads to max or over. I do have a PET LOAD for my .223 Remington caliber with my T/C Contender Super 14�. It is with H-335 powder. I started with the surplus H-335 many years ago and I finally used the last of 3-eight pound kegs of the stuff. So, I went to the canister grade H-335. All is well, but I have chronographed these loads on different days and YES, the velocities were slightly different on each day. I suspect it was a temperature thing. BUT, points of impact did not change all that drastic�Maybe not even noticeable? Oh well, I guess it boils down to using good common sense and conservativism when using surplus powders!!! Sure wish I would have purchased a couple more 8-pounders of that WC-852 (4831 burn rate) when I bought the present keg I have. It has worked well with jacketed and cast bullets all along the way. Good-luck with the surplus powders�BCB

I chronographed a max load of WC680 in a .357 Max 22" barrel when the temp was near 100 and again when it was maybe 65. Velocity dropped about 30 fps.

[ 11-28-2003, 03:44: Message edited by: Leftoverdj ]

The chamber temp swing from an unfired gun to just fired 10 times is greater than the temperature swings of the weather.

One long range target guy tells me that if he has one in the hot chamber and does not pull the trigger soon enough, he must aim lower.

Leftoverdj

What are you using as max load of 680? What kind of velocities are you getting with 150/158s and 180s in the 22" barrel.
Have you tried WC820 in the gun or just the 680?
Full of questions?

LouisB

Max load was all I could get in the case and still get a good crimp, I think that was 21 grains, but it might have been 22.

My Handi is sorta relentlessly stuck on 1950 fps. 200 grain jacketed and 212 cast RNGC over the same charge give about the same velocity. 180 grain bullets just take more powder to get to about the same place.

My shooting in the Max has been done with 5744, WW 680, and WC 680. My guess is that those powders are a bit too slow for 180 grain bullets and I know they are too slow for the Remington 180s which must be seated deeply to get a crimp. Velocities drop off with those. The 180 XTPs with the two cannelures do well and might be my choice for deer hunting if I still hunted much.

I'm mostly a casual cast bullet shooter and not much of a keeper of notes. My filing system consists of the labels on my ammo boxes. For my purposes, Lyman #358315 and WC 680 serve very well. 5744 is at least as good, but I cannot bring myself to pay $20 a pound for powder I bought for 50 cents a pound. I still have a few pounds of that surplus lot left, but I tend to horde it when I can use current surplus.

Late in the day at the range I started using my 358x404. I put about 10 rounds thru it and than went to get more ammo that I had left on the seat. To say it was very warm would be british under statement. It was damn hot. with hot rifle and hot ammo I began to fire. The load was 92 grs. aa4350 and a 250 gr. bullet. I'd used this load often with absolutly no problem. This time the bolt handle had to be forced open.It wasn't a primer popper but the rearend of that case was pressing awfully hard against the bolt face.

I understand that ammo used in equitorial Africa and other hot spots has always been loaded down to ward off a possible misshap do to temperature influence. I'm confident that our contemporary ammo manufactuerors factor this in also.

Additional heat energy induced into a round will definitely affect chamber pressure when fired no matter if it's extruded, flake or ball powder.

Yes, it's a general rule of chemical reactions that their rate goes up exponentially with the temperature, and all powders are sensitive to the starting temperature. Some more than others, but it affects them all. And various independent testers have posted varying results as to how the Hodgdon "Extreme" powders respond. You can't just pick a "temperature-insensitive" powder and be done with it. The ammunition factories do allow a lot of leeway for varying conditions; that's why we think it's so ridiculously easy to beat their ballistics. We can't always load to the max in "normal" temperatures, either, if sometime we might be shooting in hot summer weather with ammo that's been shut up in the car, or if we ever dawdle around with a round chambered in a hot barrel. That safety margin's gone, if we do.