Thinking about ordering some Hawk Bullets.

What do yall think of them in terms of performance on game.

Seems like sound logic behind their design. I am interested in the .264 and .308 bullets, but all info will be appreciated.

David

On the recomendation of Dave Scovil, I used Hawk bullets in my 350 Rem Mag and ran into some pressure problems. It was likely my fault as I extrapolated data and figured I could use my max load with 225 Noslers on the much shorter and blunter 225 Hawk F.N.'s.

My first sign of trouble was when the velocity seemed high as the bullets cut wet phone books almost in two. I had never seen this kind of damage in bullet testing. The bullets did self distruct but after penetrating well and creating massive damage.

To be fair this is a 35 Rem design shot at 350 Mag or more velocities. The base expansion was maximum but o.k. and then the third shot froze the bolt. When using a rod and mallet through the bore against the bolt face I opened the action the swolen case needed to be poped out of the bolt and the primer fell from the case.

I was using 60 grains of 4320 and this is near full capacity load I doubt that I overloaded the case. I only have one powder out at a time and did not mix up powders. Could the softened annealed copper have slugged to the bore raising friction and pressure? was it a fluke? Did I make a mistake? I shouldn't have started with a load this hot but the pressure ring expansion of the first two shots were not over maximum.

I no longer use these bullets. This might be unfair but is a true account of a puzzling occurence.

Research my previous posts for exact details. I have used the Hawk 300gr .025jkt in my 450/400 double rifle on deer and pigs with excellent results. I have used the Hawk 285gr. 035jkt in my 9,3x74R double on pigs with excellent results. Both bullets have taken multiple pigs and have given large mushrooms and very quick kills, including many drop to the shot kills. My velocities are in the 2350fps range. The .035jkt would probably be ok in the 308, but the higher velocities of the 264 might need a thicker jacket. Call Hawk on the phone, they are good people to do business with.

Have you seen one? Take a look at the base and the open hole in the jacket.

I would not shoot one for fear that the lead core might blow out and leave the jacket in the bore.

www.nookhill.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=007616#000009

[ 08-24-2003, 20:47: Message edited by: Savage 99 ]

I have used Hawk on game, and I like them at low velocity. At high velocity, they are not likely to hold up. Also, pressures seem to be higher with Hawks, perhaps because pur copper is more sticky, so I would avoid high pressure loads.

I did some research on this web-site. Very interesting.

Doesn't sound so good. I think I will stick with Hornady's. Much, much Cheaper(less expensive) and proven performance. Or stick with Nosler for premium type bullets.

Thanks to all of you for your help.

David

The "open hole theory" is kind of a joke. I see this batted around a couple times a year and all the hand wringing would do justice to corn huskers lotion.

Gas pressure pushes equally in all directions at the same time. Meaning it is pushing equally all over the base of the bullet, perpendicular to the bore, and on the inside of the cartridge case. From the aforementioned thread, you would think it only pushed on the exposed lead base.

I have only actually seen one instance of this occurring and this was in a .270 Weatherby that was loaded to an estimated 100,000 psi or greater. I believe it was in Handloading magazine. The bullet managed to get about 1/2" down the bore before the rest of the barrel and receiver blew apart, the barrel itself was bulged behind the bullet in a tear-drop shape. The lead was gone but the jacket was in the bore. I do not remember the brand of bullet. The thing to note here is the rifle was totally destoyed and the shooter was seriously injured (to my recollection someone correct em if I am wrong).

All the stuff about bullets with exposed lead bases being dangerous is hearsay since there has never been ANY actual evidence to show there are problems with them.

That being said, on their website, Hawk specifically recommends loading from the bottom and working up. Any voodoo experienced by this shooter was due to starting with maximum load.

Unfortunately while Hawk has a really, really good idea, they are adamant about not soldering the jacket to the core. If they did this I do not think they could keep up with demand, the idea of a bullet that could go SPLAT and not fly apart would be great.

I posted some pics of a 175 grain roundnose (7x57 Mauser) that Mr. Atkinson sent me, he had fired it into a small deer for a Texas heart shot and it penetrated approximately seven inches. All he was able to recover was the jacket, the lead core had vaporized.

That they work and work well is evidenced by the constant expansion of the company (they sent me a prospectus a few years ago to buy into as a shareholder).

I have some in 175 grain 7x57, and some in 0.510" 0.035" and 0.065". If I were going to shoot anything other than targets I would use a superpremium like Barnes or any other monometal bullet. I don't like the idea of eating lead. It isn't good for you.

[ 08-25-2003, 00:05: Message edited by: Nitroman ]

Nitroman,
I thought the idea Hawk had sounded like a good one, too. The post saying that it will explode on contact with heavy game and therefore not penetrate is what turns me off.

Unfortunately, I tried some of the plastic tipped bullets several years ago. Found out the hard way why Taylor hated them so much. I don't want a repeat performance with a bullet that is too soft.

However I still might try a box. My curiousity is still telling me "never know for sure till you try."
I might get the heavy .308 bullet to try since I can't find any of the Barnes Originals.

Thanks,

David

Seems like they could make a flat based bullet with a closed base pretty easy and get rid of the "potntial" or "percieved" problem.

I can't see any benefit to keeping a open base. I have never seen a Hawk bullet so I am not sure exactly what the Base looks like.

Anybody got some pics they want to post?

The sectioned Hawk bullet that I have here has a little less than half of it cut away. What's left weighs 208 grs. The diameter at the base is .3592" and a half inch from there it tapers to .3589". This must be their 300 gr 35 caliber bullet. There is no candelure or other form on the jacket that I can see to grip the core.

Scaling the jacket it seems to be about .045" to .050" thick. There is no taper of the jacket towards the nose.

To add if you buy them and don't like the look then send them back or shoot them backwards.

If you looking for a different bullet then consider the Woodleigh's.

The hole in the base seems to be about .175" in diameter.

Edited to reflect the corrected diameters of an unsectioned bullet.

[ 09-02-2003, 00:58: Message edited by: Savage 99 ]

Are there any documented cases on the lead core seperating from a Hawk bullet at normal pressure levels? I have never seen any. Only rumor and what if. Lots of folks shoot them. Someone should have some solid evidence by now if it happens.

I tried some in 338. Same velocity as conventional bullets with less powder. I suspect its the long bearing surface and softer jacket sealing the bore better.

Very accurate, but expensive.

I found a Nosler Partiton load that worked for me and dropped my work on the Hawk.

If I happen upon a good deal on a gun in a caliber with hard to find bullets, I would not have a problem using Hawk bullets.

About 5 months ago,over on the HA forum, a shooter blew up his rifle using Hawk bullets. When the gun was checked out they found the bullets jacket lodged in the barrel minus the lead core which had blown out.

As I recall that accident happened with the first shot with a Hawk bullet. The rifle had just been shot quite a bit with other loads.

So that would have just been very high pressure. I don't recall if a load had been worked up for Hawk bullets but it may not have been.

There were other issues with that P17 including a belted case separation and headspace.

I blew up a rifle with a Hawk bullet. 30 cal 220 gr. .035" jacket. I don't blame the Hawk bullet fully for the Ka-Boom, but I do believe it played a part. The open base is just an accident waiting to happen IMO. In my case, here is my theroy in what happened.

The case separated dumping gas into the action and out through the loading port. This was the result of excessive headspace. The Hawk bullet never really got going and the jacket stopped in the bore. Inertia, along with significant residual pressure squirted the core out of the jacket. The -10% load of RL25 could also of created a secondary detonation. The initial primer spark and powder burn started the bullet, then there was a slight pause in burn, and when the main charge finally went, the pressure couldn't get past the stuck Hawk, thus blowing the case head, and mega amounts of gases coming through the action, and into my face.

I do know I'd never shoot another Hawk, or even consider reccomending them to a fellow shooter. I took the rest of my Hawk's and cut them in half for sling shot ammo.

A friend of mine had a 250 grain Hawk bullet fail on an eland. It was a 2400 fps load in a .35 Whelan. It did not penetrate but came apart. They make their bullets from copper tubing and anneal it twice during the manufacturing process. I belive they anneal the tubing first then draw it then anneal it again. Using tubing leaves the opening in the base. Barnes bullets had this same feature I don't recall that there was any problem with jackets squirting out with them. Hawk claims they don't bond their cores but have another means to keep jacket and core from separating, I can't immagine what that could be. I have been making jacketed bullets in .375" and .308", the pure copper cups I use are drawn from sheet stock. I try them with and without bonding and there doesn't seem to be much difference in accuracy. I need to shoot the bonded core bullets a bit more to be absolutely sure of their accuracy potential. Hawk claims that bonding is detrimental to accuracy.

I used the 230 gr/.338" in my WM about four years ago... I experienced tremendous variation's in pressure signs which were a bit spooky.

I tried Hawk bullets (.411-300gr) in two 40 caliber rifles and could not make them shoot well in either rifle. I have no experience with them on game.