I recently got ahold of an older neck size die set from RCBS. After cleaning it up good, I went to set it up and on the first case, the decap pin bent. Needless to say, it is of a slightly different design from my other, more current RCBS set, and the pin from that won't work (different design and larger diameter-.07 vs .06). The pins from my other die sets (Redding) are of a slightly larger diameter (.062) and are much shorter.

Anyone have any idea as to when this change occured? Will RCBS have the necessary parts to fix my issue? Or Will one of those replacements that Hornady makes for RCBS dies work with the older set?

If I can get the fired cases decapped, can I neck size adequately without the sizing button?

SBB

I decap all my cases in a seperate step and they run them thru my die to just bump the shoulder. I have the sizing button screwed up far enough that it can't go into the primer hole and just goes below the neck area. I can't prove it but I think it cuts down on run-out and certainly seems to "drag" a lot less that decapping and sizing at the same time. I should also note that I polish the button so it's very, very smooth.

DB Bill, I do the same as you, with the added step of tuning the expander per the Kraky method.

I have the tools and can prove it--less runout is right.

To your specific question about the Hornady part fitting the RCBS, I think it will, a call to Hornady will confirm, if it does do it. I have made that change to many of my dies, and like it!

Well, I fired an email inquiry off to Hornady. What exactly is the Kraky method of tuning the expander? I get what DB says about running the expander up high in the die set.

SBB

I don't do all of my brass prep'ing in one step anyway....

I first full length size 223 and 22.250 cases without the expander die in them... then I tumble them over night....

Then I deprime them with a Universal Decapping Die....

Then I use a Lee Neck Sizing Die on them....

Extra steps, but it has eliminated some of the problems of a stuck case, and if I do get one... It is a lot easier to get the stuck case out of the die, with the expander plug out of it...

Accuracy has improved also... brass life is usually 10 loadings before I start to get neck splits etc...

cheers
seafire

Its fun to be famous. This is my method...I just stumbled onto it one night and it has done a really good job for me. I'll paste here...

My $.02 worth---ALL dies with expander balls need tuning. Think about it....people chase concentricity issues of .003"......a piece of typing paper is .003" thick--what are the odds that the expander is not PERFECTLY centered in a die and can pull the neck off center that little bit??? Pretty good I'd say. Pull the expander stem out of the die (and now is a good time to clean the inside of the die). Run about 5 brass into the die and see if they come out concentric. If they do (and usually they will) you now have to try and get that stem centered on re-assembly. A great way that helps is to put a piece of very concentric brass up into the die to hold the stem in place as you tighten it down. Sometimes this takes 2 people unless you have 3 or 4 hands. AFter reassembly try sizing some brass and check runnout. If not good then do very small turns of the expander stem--probably 1/32 of a turn at a time. Resize some brass and repeat the small turns. At some point I can almost guarantee that you will get GREAT RUNNOUT CONSISTANTLY. (Somehow, someway the expander spindle will hit almost perfect centering in the die body) I have many dies that consistantly make less than .002" runnout after sizing with most of the brass at .001" and less. I own, hornady, redding, forester, rcbs, and lee dies. ALL OF THEM HAVE BEEN TUNED and most make fantastic ammo and all make good ammo!! I have never ever got a set of dies from any factory that made as good of ammo as those that I have done this simple work with.

One last comment I read where guys are seating bullets on brass that hasn't been run over an expander. (essentially using the bullet as the expander). Maybe its just me or bad luck but if I try to seat bullets with really tight neck tension my runnout really goes to heck quick. Evidently they have alot better seaters than I do?

kraky

have you ever tried the redding carbide de-capping pin? it has a floating button that possibly enhances runout but i don't know.

bounty hunter

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:
Extra steps, but it has eliminated some of the problems of a stuck case, :

Try Bardhal, John! roger

quote:

Originally posted by Super Bon Bon:
If I can get the fired cases decapped, can I neck size adequately without the sizing button?

SBB

SBB, the problem with sizing without an expander in a conventional die is as follows. The die is made to size down the neck a bunch more than required, and then relies on the expander to leave you with the right neck tension. If you size without the expander, you will essentially be asking the bullet to do the work of the expander. That may work for you, only testing will tell. But, you do run the risk of damaging the bullet at the heel in the seating operation, and that is about the worst place you can damage it.

Expanders are inherently problematic. Some die makers (Forster and Hornady included) offer to modify their dies to size the neck to a specified diameter. That will allow you to use the die without the expander, should that take your fancy.

It is no sweat to decap in a separate operation with a Universal Decapping Die (e.g. RCBS or Lee). So you can still use your NS die, even if you can't locate a suitable pin for it.

- mike

quote:

Will RCBS have the necessary parts to fix my issue?
If I can get the fired cases decapped, can I neck size adequately without the sizing button?

SBB

RCBS is great about fixing or placing anything they make. Sizing without an expander is sometimes a good idea, just be sure and chamfer the case mouth before seating the bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by mho:If you size without the expander, you will essentially be asking the bullet to do the work of the expander.

- mike

Part of the problem is the expander ball is much worse when pulling that when pushing. Expander balls as a separate step AFTER the case has been sized is much less eccentric.

Bullets pushing down in a sliding sleeve die are excellent expanders.

Another cause of eccentricity is sizing down too far. Use a Redding "S" die or get Forster to lapp out a neck.

Redding includes a trouble making expander ball on the "S" die stem. I remove those.

[/QUOTE]
Expanders are inherently problematic. Some die makers (Forster and Hornady included) offer to modify their dies to size the neck to a specified diameter. That will allow you to use the die without the expander, should that take your fancy.

[/QUOTE]

Does that mean with the Redding Neck "S" Bushing die you do not need an expander? All you do is neck size down to the neck tension you want?

quote:

...Needless to say, it is of a slightly different design from my other, more current RCBS set, and the pin from that won't work (different design and larger diameter-.07 vs .06). ... Anyone have any idea as to when this change occured? Will RCBS have the necessary parts to fix my issue? Or Will one of those replacements that Hornady makes for RCBS dies work with the older set?

Your dies must be real vintage RCBS. The change from .06 to .07 dia. decapping pins occurred some time in the late 1950's, around date code 'H' or 'I'. (This for standard cartridges using large primers.) Replacing the expander ball only (to get a larger hole for the .07 pin) won't work, as the rod itself is sized for the smaller pin. If your decapping rod is the normal 1/4x28 thread, a replacement rod - complete with new expander ball and pin - is usually available from normal retail sources (find 'em on a peg at GI Joe). The Hornady replacement tapered-carbide exapnder assemblies will indeed work and are superior.

However, if your dies are really really vintage, say about date code 'D' (c.1953) or earlier, you probably have a smaller (10x32 thread) decapping rod as well. In this event, I don't know of a readily available replacement for the rod. If there is one, Buzz Huntington would know: Huntington Die Specialties (530 534 1210).

But the cheap and easy fix is just to obtain a package of 'small' decapping pins - the ones intended for small rifle and pistol primers - and plunk it in your existing rod. Again, these are easy (?) to find at retail. This is not the ideal remedy, of course, since it's just as easy to bend the new one as the old.

Jim

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:

Does that mean with the Redding Neck "S" Bushing die you do not need an expander? All you do is neck size down to the neck tension you want?

In a way, you also have to measure your case and buy the size bushing that you want, so you can choose the inside diameter of your resized neck. The one I tried was expensive and yielded a lot of runout. Can't adjust like you can an expander stem using the Kraky method (how does it feel to be famous Kraky? ). My suggestion, and a lot cheaper too, is to use Lee Collett neck sizers

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=329661

Less runout for me. It has a decapping pin. Works great for me.

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:



Does that mean with the Redding Neck "S" Bushing die you do not need an expander? All you do is neck size down to the neck tension you want?

I have been collecting every brand of .223 die and doing every possible thing with them. Before I say that Redding puts an expander ball in the "S" die that ruins everything that is accomplished by the bushing, I want to finish the experiments. Redding makes such nice stuff, it is hard for me to come down on them before I am done, but so far I am doing best in .223 with a 17 Remington stem amd expander ball in the .223 "S" die with .245" bushing.

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:
Does that mean with the Redding Neck "S" Bushing die you do not need an expander? All you do is neck size down to the neck tension you want?

Sort of. Instructions are to measure the outside neck diameter of a loaded round and choose neck sizing bushing with a slightly smaller (by .002 or .003) diameter. Repeat for each different lot of cases.

If your brass has variations in neck wall thickness, those variations will be transferred to the inside of the necks, since the bushing makes the outside of the necks uniform.

quote:

Try Bardhal, John! thumbroger

I did Roger, it tasted like Crap! Worst than Casteroil.......

Naw, I am the WD 40 kid, when it comes to case lub... spray it on a frying pan, that I bought for doing this.. one of those blue camping ones... and hang it on the side of my reload bench and let the excess drain off.. I re squirt a shot after cases start to get some drag on them....

then I tumble it off in the tumbler with Walnut media...

I use WD 40, strictly because it is cheap and I can find it about anywhere...I don't use it for gun oil etc tho...doesn't take much time... I sized 100 223 cases this evening.. didn't take much time at all... out in the tumbler overnight now.... will be nice and shiney in the morning...

cheers
seafire

SBB,
There are a couple of things to consider when resizing brass.

1. None of the brass is the same thickness when measured around the case. Most will vary from .002" - .004" from side to side. Even good brass like Lapue usually varies from .001" - .002". So, concentricity is already shot. Also, because the brass's thickness varies, when you run the brass into the die, the thin side will give a little easier than the thick side. Again throwing concentricity off. Now you pull the sizing button back through the neck and the thin side will move easier throwing concentricity out even more. This process doubles works the brass too.

2. New brass is to soft and has little 'memory' to be consistent from one piece to another. It needs to be fired at least 3 times in order to hold consistent shape. This is why annealing is a waste of time. Annealing takes away the memory that you've gained.

3. No matter how centered your sizing button, it will go off center to follow the the hole. There is NO WAY to make the neck concentric with the rest of the case with the sizing button! The concentricity is achieved through resizing with good dies. Same with seating a bullet. You must have a positive alingment in order to seat the bullet straight.

What you should do for best concentricity and brass life:

Full length size brass without sizing button.
Expand neck to .001" below cal. .223" for 22.
Run cal size reamer into neck to take out high spots.
Turn necks to either match your chamber, if it's a tight neck, or just enough to clean off the high spots and make neck thickness consistent.
Get a Good set of custom full length and seater dies (Neil Jones) made for your chamber and full length size every time. The idea is to move the brass as little as possible so as not to cause case failure but extend the life of the brass. When using sizing button, the brass must be taken down below the desired size so that when you pull the button back through, it will give a certain amount of tension. This does vary from die to die from the same manufacturer because they have SAMMI specs and mass produce everything.

Hope this helps.

I only neck size and use "allegedly" good brass (RWS, Lapua and Norma).

I used to do the Ken Howell method of neck sizing (down .002 from seated) without the expander in the "S" die. Then I'd use the original neck die WITH the expander to only open up the mouth of the case.

Well, after getting tired of the PITA (and I only hunt) I put the expander back in the "S" die. Probably unnecessary, but old habits.....

That being said, since I use TSX bullets exclusively (all boat-tails), do I even need the expander at all?

P.S. FWIW: RWS > Lapua > Norma as far as quality.

FMC,
It would depend how much your dies are sizing your brass. .003" should be sufficient for repeaters.
If the brass is sized too much, you can peal copper from the bullet.

I use my Redding "S" necksizers with the proper* bushing & with expander removed.

* might (and does) differ according to brass brand.

quote:

Originally posted by Andre Mertens:
I use my Redding "S" necksizers with the proper* bushing & with expander removed.

* might (and does) differ according to brass brand.

Thanks Andre, my friend. I used to be Doctor C, at HuntAmerica. Still driving Volvos?

Ah, good to hear from you Doctor C ! Of course, still driving Volvo's, black Labs*, and Sauer & Blaser rifles.

... sometimes, both at the same time