Greetings all. I have perused the archives and have just enough knowledge to be dangerous so I thought I would check my understanding. I bought a drilling (specifically, fell in love with and overpaid for a beater and spent half again as much getting it to shooting condition). Its rifle caliber is 8X57JR. I believe it slugs to around .3195, but will confirm in the next few days. I think I have finally tracked down a box of S&B rounds for it, but would very much like to make some kind of cast round for it. I don't have dies for it. I see that a proper set of RCBS dies will run me $142. That's a whole lot of money, and flustrating so because regular 8X57JS (.323) dies are about $25.

The questions:

If I find JRS brass, will a good neck sizer and then seater die take it to JR diameter?

If I buy new brass, do I need to full length size the brass or is fireforming with a light cast load close enough?

Is there another (i.e. cheaper) caliber die that will give me a .318 equivalent? For example, is there a neck sizer mandrel that will fit in an 8X57JS body and work or do I misunderstand that process? Is there a cheaper seater die that will work?

I already have a universal depriming die. As I understand it, RCBS shellholder #26 fits that shell base, right?

Due to the lower pressure of cast rounds, I had planned to use a minimum load for 8X57JS in the Lyman cast bullet handbook with a bore-sized (.3195) bullet. Anyone see an issue with that?


From these questions, I'm obviously on the steep part of the learning curve. Do feel free to fill in some of the gaps if it looks like I'm about to blow up a fine old gun or an equally fine shooter.


I appreciate the collected wisdom.

-Shalyn

Well, you started out right by verifying the bore size of your rifle barrel. As the caliber designation 8x57IR indicates, this is a .318 bore (or close) as opposed to the .323 bore found on the 8x57IRS!! Good job! Most people (outside the Germanic world) largely ignore the differences in caliber designation.

Yes, you can use 8x57IRS brass - but as you noted, you'll need a sizer made for the .318 cal round.

If you use 8x57IRS brass, I would personally FL size new brass. But if the brass will chamber unsized (try without a bullet seated), then this is just a matter of preference.

You can use a regular 8x57I(RS) seater for your 8x57IR, no problem. I suggest a Forster as it is an excellent seater. Mind you, if you have a set of dies made, you might automatically end up with a seater. In that case there is no need to buy a special seater like the Forster - although it is very nice...

For FL sizing dies (and seater, probably), these guys http://www.ch4d.com/ are a tad less expensive than RCBS. The 8x57I(R) dies list for $78.25 on their website... To find the caliber in their caliber list, search for the string "8 x 57" (note the additional spaces - without those, the search won't work!).

In *principle*, it is possible that a .323 sizing die WITHOUT the expander (or, less likely, with a reduced expander size) might size your neck sufficiently to hold your .318 bullets. But this is a trial and error thing. You won't know until you try the actual die. By then you'll already have spent upwards of $30 for a set of dies you may not be able to use...

In a break-top gun like your drilling, a FL sizing die will most likely give you more joy than a neck sizer.

The shell holder should not be a problem, although I don't know the # you need. The die you'll get will most likely have a decapping assembly installed, so unless you insist, you won't need your Universal Decapping die.

Sorry, can't help you with the questions about cast bullets.

- mike

RCBS-shell-houlder no.4 or 26 will do it!

Thanks for the great information!

All of my rifle loading experience has been in WWI era bolt rifles, thus my questions about neck sizing. It's kinder to the brass supposedly. I'll have to think about the break-action difference. I presume the bolt provides more leverage on loading and extraction? Once I find some brass, I'll give it a try and decide.

The really cheap part of me has noticed that I can buy a full set of 8X57JS Lee dies (Yes, I know they're not great) for $11 USD and a neck sizer that can be modified down to .318 for $20. I presume I could obtain a .318 expander ball as well. I have never heard anything about the CH4D dies. Midway does have 8x57JR RCBS dies on sale for $110, but $78 is still rather cheaper if they're of equivalent quality. If a JS seater die will work, I might just go with a modified cheap Lee set to try it out and go up from there when I have it worked out. As little as I shoot, it'd be cheaper to buy shells if I didn't want to make some cast loads.

Yeah, I know it's terrible to go cheap at this point, but buying and fixing this drilling really cleaned out my play money.


Again, thanks for the tutorial. I at least have a plan now.


-Shalyn

The difference between FL vs NS sizing for a break-top gun is primarily in the chambering. If the cartridge is JUUUUST small enough to fit in the chamber, you are likely to have to close your gun pretty vigorously every time you chamber a round. You really have no other way of ensuring the round is seated deeply enough. This, IMHO, is not only a pain in the posterior, it can also have a negative effect (long term) on the hinge and the locking mechanism of the gun. These types of guns are not as robust as bolt actions and should be treated a bit carefully.

It is no big sweat to modify a ".323" expander to .318. The expander will always be about .003-.005" smaller than the bullet diameter it is made for. So expect the expander of an 8x57I(R)S die to be about .318-.320" in diameter. Depending on how much neck tension you want, you should expect the .318" expander to be about .313-.315" in diameter. It should be pretty easy to chuck the decaping assembly in a hand drill and polish down the expander with some emery cloth.

A regular sizing die (one relying on an expander) works the following way: first it squeezes the case neck down below the required target diameter. It then wrestles the expander through the neck to achieve the final neck diameter and associated neck tension. The problem with using an 8x57I(R)S die, is that you won't know before having tried the die, how far down it sizes the neck without the expander. This is determined by 1) die internal neck diameter and 2) case wall thickness of the case neck. If you are lucky, the 8x57I(R)S die will size the neck sufficiently, that an expander of the correct size wil provide you with sufficient neck tension to properly hold your .318" bullets. But you won't know this until you try your die with a given brand (or even batch) of brass.

The other option you might pursue, is to get the .318" modified (Lee?) NS die, and combine it with a Redding Body Die - which will size the case body only and bump your case shoulder, but leave the neck alone. I just have a feeling that as soon as you start investing in specialty dies like the Redding Body die, any potential savings might quickly disappear.

You *might* be able to size with a .323 FL die, and subsequently with a .318" NS die. But you'll be working your brass twice this way, and can expect your savings on dies quickly to be eaten up by additional cost for brass.

I have personally never used the CH4D dies, so I can't tell you how they are. However, they have been discussed in here on multiple occasions, and the owners never have anything negative to say about them. Use the search function here to check out some discussions...

If you would really like to try to avoid the $78.25 outlay for a set of CH4D dies, I would personally try a standard set of Lee 8x57I(R)S dies - FL plus seater, no NS die. I would remove the expander from the FL die and size a case of the brand (batch) you intend to use. If a case sized without an expander will securely hold a .318" bullet, then you are good to go. Then you want to measure 1) sized case neck diameter vs. 2) case neck diameter with a bullet seated. The difference between the two will give you neck tension (measured in thousands of an inch). If you get more than about .005" neck tension, then you need to start using an expander. In which case you'll have to modify the .323" expander as I described above.

Good luck - mike

Shalyn,

Wow! you've already received some fantastic advice from mho (Mike) & M-F; two fellows on this site that really know their 8mm's!

I wouldn't get too wrapped around the axle about so-called "work hardening" your brass at this point. Then again, annealing is another option open down the road......

One of my best Hunting Pals has a beautiful 8x57IR (.318") Drilling that he'd picked up for a Song and it'd been a Safe Queen for over a decade until we got it back into the race this summer (I shoulda offer him a "Small" profit and attempted to scarf it up for myself but he's a Buddy!). We did the same as you're going though now, first organized the Dies and then the CORRECT bullets. The only option immediately available to us was the RWS 196 gr. .318" Cone Points; and they proved to be the correct answer. After all, it's not like your gonna take your Drilling to the range and burn out the barrel. Organizing 20 rounds at a time will last indeifnately.


Mike's advice belwo is good!:
It is no big sweat to modify a ".323" expander to .318. The expander will always be about .003-.005" smaller than the bullet diameter it is made for. So expect the expander of an 8x57I(R)S die to be about .318-.320" in diameter. Depending on how much neck tension you want, you should expect the .318" expander to be about .313-.315" in diameter. It should be pretty easy to chuck the decaping assembly in a hand drill and polish down the expander with some emery cloth.


I've been relaoding for my & friends Drillings, BBF's & Single Shots by Neck Sizing for a while and we've never encountered an issue as long as the load date is used comensurate with the age of the rifle & load data of the rimmed cartridge(s) and the cobnination of Die Sets and shellholders nromally make such and easy fix.

I wouldn't turn my nose up at a set of Lee Dies if they'll deliver the goods - they're as good as anything on the market today; and their Cutomer Service Department is great at assisting with those little extras that you're describing, too.

When you are satisfied with the final chamber cast, barrel slug and the measurements of your Drilling - make sure you looking through the "Used Stuff" and cobweb filled corners of Gun Shops - had a German Forester whose supposedly "old" .318" Drilling actually ended up loving all the old .32 Special RN bullets I could scarf up for him (mostly at $1 a box!).

Have Fun with your new Drilling.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerry:
had a German Forester whose supposedly "old" .318" Drilling actually ended up loving all the old .32 Special RN bullets I could scarf up for him (mostly at $1 a box!).

Have Fun with your new Drilling.

I size down the Speer 170 gr 32 Special bullets to .318" for my 8-57J Sauer drilling. I made a die using a Lyman Eze Loader Fl die by drilling a hole the correct size in it. A tool could be made by drilling a hole in a piece of steel and pushing the bullet through with a pin while its in a vise.

Shalyn,
If you can make a chamber cast of your rifle do so and check the dimensions of your chamber vs a std 8X57 round. Std 8X57 dies can be bought and the expander polished down to .317. Have you tried a 8X57 case to see if it will drop in your chamber?

There are a lot of techniques that can be used to verify the dimensions of your chamber and the length from the breech face to the shoulder datum. You may find that just using std dies with the polished expander and a rimmed shell holder is all you need.

I have 4 8X57 sizer dies and 2 8X57 form/trim dies. I can measure each and tell you what the inside diameter of the neck is. You can also have a machinist or gunsmith use pin gauges to measure your chamber neck diameter. You can easily predetermine before hand if a given set of dies will size the case enough.
I would be glad to send sample sized but unexpanded cases from my dies or I can just send the measurements.

Savage 99

Thank you all for the great information. Sorry for the delay--just got over a major computer meltdown and the office computers block all shooting sites.

elathe: I did try to do a cerrosafe chamber casting, but the instructions that came with it were wrong and left me in the uncomfortable position of using a propane torch to melt it out of the barrel scared out of my mind that a soldered rib or barrel would pop loose. That and I found out how toxic that alloy is. I plan to slug the bore, but if there's a better way to do a chamber cast, let me know.

At this point, I finally found a source of factory rounds. As soon as I empty those, I'll use the accumulated wisdom and some cast bullets to try and come up with a load. I have the Lyman Cast bullet handbook and will try some of the lowest pressure Unique loads for 8x57JS and report back. I figure cast rounds are a good way to stay out of trouble.

Again, thanks all.

-Shalyn