The rifle is a Savage Mod.11 left hand short bolt action. It feeds, chambers, and shoots factory ammo fine. However, re-loaded ammo feeds from the magazine poorly and it's hard to close the bolt on the round. When I FL re-size a once-fired case using either Lee or Hornady dies (touching the shell holder) the base dia. just above the extractor groove comes out .555" instead of the .550" of new ammo. Manual specs. also show .550" as correct. A re-sized case marked with a felt pen and chambered confirms contact at the .555" spot. As near as I can measure without removing the barrel the chamber also measures .555" All other case dimensions, including head space, are to spec. It's hard to believe only .005" can cause so much trouble. Is this chamber just "tight" or am I missing something obvious?? Thank you...

Jon

Jon, are you getting a shiny ring around the primer pocket? I don't know what type of press you are using, but if it is a RCBS or similar, adjust the die so the ram/handle will cam over a fair amount. ( Older Lee press is more difficult to achieve this, I have found.) Once I started doing this the tight bolt closing went away. Also I prefer to use the same brand of shell holder as my F-L die, (and of the same manufactured era or you will have to shave a few thousanths off the shell holder). Now days so much is made over seas and the metric conversion is not exactly the the same. I have had the same problem of tight bolt closing with the 300WSM as well as the 270WSM if I don't do what I mentioned. I believe the problem to be the case body is so wide, yet the head thickness is not increased. This results in the face of the case head becoming slightly convexed over one or more firings of the brass. On my 270 WSM & 300 WSM (handloads), I would get a shiny ring on the face of the head just outside the primer pocket as well a tight closing bolt, which indicated exactly what I said about the face becoming convexed. Also I found Imperial case wax to be the best to lube the cases on the neck as well as the body. I found this helps alot. Good luck.

The web expands for 2 reasons. 1.Hot loads, but you are using factory. Ammo recall maybe? 2.Experts say (not me) pushing the should back to much can cause the web area to expand where its not supported by the FL die.(news to me) To fix, its said to back the FL die out/up a hair. Size the brass so it just chambers with crush fit. SAAMI list the maximum web diameter at .555" as you have said. The chamber drawing lists .5563" + .002" So if you have a very tight minimum chamber at .5563", you have a tight fit. What to do about it is the question? SAAMI Drawing Link > http://www.saami.org/PubResour...20Short%20Magnum.pdf

quote:

it's hard to close the bolt on the round.

Very common, when sizing. The shell holder is not touching the bottom of the FL die when sizing.When sizing a case with the ram/shell holder at the top of its stroke, look to see if shell holder is contacting the FL die. Are you using enough lube?

Rae59...Thank you for the tips.
I'm using a Lee "Classic" cast iron press. It's fairly stout and does not cam over. Since your post I've tried both shell holders and dies, matched and unmatched, without success. At present I only have 8 once fired cases to work with and they have all been FL sized. I've checked them carefully and see no bright ring around the primer pocket...but since they have been FL sized several times it may have been erased. These 8 once-fired cases, as well the new Federal rounds both show equal and very slight convexity across the base when held to a straight edge.

Because both of my FL dies size to exactly the same diameter I'm really beginning to wonder about my chamber dimensions. Since the 270, 7mm, and 300 WSM all share the same (.550") base size would you mind measuring one of your FL sized WSM cases? If yours also measure .555" then I doubt there is anything wrong with my dies or press set-up. BTW, what brass do you use? I've been using Federal and Winchester and their external dimensions are identical.

Thank you again for your help.

Jon

Jon, on my F-L resized 270 WSM brass they measure .553" to .5535". On the 300 WSM they all pretty much measurer .554".
It is also possible that if your resizing die/shell holder combination are a little on the long side and not allowing the case to go up in the die far enough to let you get another .001" or so of resizing. This combined with a chamber that is on the tight side could give you the sitution you have.

I have a Lee resizing die for a 338WM that was so tight it shaved off a ring of brass everytime I resized the 338 cases. Bought Redding reloading dies in the same caliber and the problem went away.

I only
have Winchester brass for the WSMs. Hope this helps.

Rae59
Thank you for taking the measurements. Well, your dies DO get the cases a little smaller. If BOTH of my FL dies did not behave exactly the same I would suspect an too-large FL die as the problem. I have even tried slipping a .005" feeler gauge blade between the case and shell holder, raising it .005". But, the WSM case has so little taper it made no change.

I bought the Savage when the WSM's first came out. Savage increased the barrel shank dia. for their WSM's as did Winchester due to pressure issues. I bought the Lee die set about the same time, and a short time later, the Hornady set thinking the Lee dies were the problem. Now I'm wondering if possibly the early WSM die sets were too large...maybe because the WSM's "spring back" is less than traditional cases? I forgot to mention that I have the same problem with light starting loads as well as hot factory ammo.

I'm going to remove the barrel (easy on a Savage) and make a chamber cast. If the measurements check out I'll contact Lee or Hornady about early/current WSM die dimensions. Beyond that, I'm out of ideas. Again, thank you very much for your help.

Jon

243WINXB

Thank you for the link to the SAAMI drawings!

Jon

You can take 5 fired cases that you are having a problem with and send them off to Lonnie Humel at Hornady or to RCBS and these 2 companies will make you a sizing die that will work...

j stoviak.

Thanks for the tip. If the chamber checks out OK and the die is too small maybe Hornady will exchange it? Sure hope the die is the problem...but two of them?

Jon

Lonnie at Hornady is a great guy and will work with you. I wouldn't mess with measuring the chamber. If the rifle is accurate and shoots, just send the fired unsized cases to Lonnie along with your current die explaining your problem and have him make you a die for those cases and your rifles chamber.

Had a similar problem with a 300 WSM as the case wasn't going into the die far enough for sizing. I ground 0.005" off my shell holder, and that did the trick.

I had the same problem with a 7mm wsm when they first came out. I simply did what Hoghunter did and ground about .005" off my shell holder, so that the die could size the case a little more. The bolt closed easy on the reloads and everything worked well. You may have other issues, but I would sure give that a try. Daryl.

Jon,
report back when ever you figure out what the problem is/was.

It sounds like a problem with all the dies for the WSM's and WSSM's.

My .243 WSSM dies have to be screwed down hard onto the shellholder where cam over is really intense to size the brass enough to chamber.

Maybe the poor design of the cartridge, the rebated rim is the culprit. Seems like a much better outcome with a high intensity cartridge if the rim is wider than the body not vise-versa. I have WSM's and all of them expand out their at full house loads. I have a Lazzeroni short mag without the rebated rim and no such problem? Just throwing it out...as an idea. Seems rebated rims kinda suck as pressure gets up...and these little rounds operate way up their..

Well, it's too late not to "mess with the chamber cast" and I agree it probably wasn't necessary. Anyway, as near as I can measure the cast mic's .554" to .5545" just forward of the extractor groove. The cast cured over 12 hours before final measurements. So, if SAAMI specs consider .5563" a "minimum" chamber I guess my problem is obvious. I'll try to call Hornady tomorrow about a FL die. Maybe reamers were in short supply back in the early WSM days and mine was re-sharpened a couple times? It DOES chamber and shoot factory ammo fine although I thought velocities were a little high at 3212 to 3236 fps ("150g Nosler Solid Base") from a 24" barrel.

Thanks again to everyone for the comments. I'll post information as I get it.

Jon

Hornady contact:

Spoke with a very helpful tech. staff member (did not get his name) and explained the FL sizeing/chamber issue. He said there had been several changes made to their WSM dies since their introduction but had no specs. at hand for the current 7mm WSM FL die. They are going to send me their CURRENT FL die (no charge) to try. If it doesn't work then I will need to order (at my cost of course) a custom die.

Jon

Rae59: Can you explain to me how you are getting a case into a die farer by caming-over than when the case is hard against the shell holder as the die must be backed out for the ram to cam over???? Jon: you are getting 0.005" of web expantion? sounds like some DAM high pressure.

quote:

Originally posted by Fat_Albert:
Rae59: Can you explain to me how you are getting a case into a die farer by caming-over than when the case is hard against the shell holder as the die must be backed out for the ram to cam over???? Jon: you are getting 0.005" of web expantion? sounds like some DAM high pressure.

I am pretty certain it is something called "leverage". (GIVE ME A FULCRUM AND I WILL MOVE THE EARTH......or at least my wife off the couch) I have a RCBS Jr. press. When ever I would take the WSM dies and run them down to the fully extended ram, by using hand force, and then proceed to resize the cases, I would get a hard closing bolt and the shiny ring around the primer pocket. If I would run the WSM resizing die down to the "fully" extended ram, then lower and turn it down another 1/4 turn or there abouts, and have a semi to hard camming handle, the shiny ring and hard closing bolt went away. I also have a Lee turret press where there is no camming of the handle, what-so-ever, I could never get the cases to chamber easily. I would think that the "camming over" of the RCBS press probably has something to do with NOT GETTING ENOUGH LEVERAGE AGAINST THE RAM from the top side when just screwing the die down by hand. When the die is screwed down and then adjusted down appox. another 1/4 turn or so after the ram is lowered, you are gaining alot of leverage from the force or lever side. I don't know if I am explaining it correctly but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Fat_Albert...Rae59

Not too sure I understood the "caming over" thing either except that it probably insures you have removed all play in the linkage. Also, raising the case in the shell holder .005" with a shim should accomplish the same thing as grinding .005" off the top of it. I had a RCBS JR press years ago and used it a lot but can't remember...are they steel or aluminum? If aluminum a lot of force could elongate the "O" of the press .005", and maybe more.

Pressure.
I probably should have explained that when I ran into the re loading problems several years ago I put the rifle up in frustration. I didn't want to shoot such hot loads and could not solve the problem. I have not fired the rifle for several years and the 8 once fired cases I've got have been through so many re-sizing attempts it's not possible to measure expansion. I still have 12 rounds of that ammo and sure will measure it this time. I do have some new WW brass and will make up some "moderate" loads with it. I'll shoot those, and some of the Federal factory ammo, and make careful before-and-after expansion measurements of them. Then It's wait for the new Hornady FL die and hope for the best!

Jon

quote:

Originally posted by Jon:
Fat_Albert...Rae59

Not too sure I understood the "caming over" thing either except that it probably insures you have removed all play in the linkage. Also, raising the case in the shell holder .005" with a shim should accomplish the same thing as grinding .005" off the top of it. I had a RCBS JR press years ago and used it a lot but can't remember...are they steel or aluminum? If aluminum a lot of force could elongate the "O" of the press .005", and maybe more. Jon

Mine is steel.
I would like to point out that the issues with my cases were due to length of shoulder to face and not so much width of body as I recall. By simply running the die down to the shell holder, I think I was getting some "spring back" of the case OR as Jon pointed out, it could have been not having enough leverage to take out the slop in the handle linkage OR it could be due to not using an effective/effecient lube like the Imperial wax which I started using at the same time I started camming the handle over. I was using the Hornady aerosol spray at first. In ANY event, the problem went away by doing what the RCBS instructions recommended (cam the handle over) plus the wax. On both of my FN M-70 WSMs I can now litterally open and close the bolt on a F-L resized case with my pinky finger.

Other than max. case length, I don't spend a lot of time measuring things with calipers or micrometers. Reloading time is a precious commodity for me. My rifle actions and marks on fired/un-fired cases tell me most everything I need to know about my loads, resizing techniques, and pressure. (Remember the WSMs run in the 62 to 64K psi range.) Having said that, I have some nickle plated factory loaded cases that were fired in my 270 WSM. Out of curiousity I will measure the heads on them an see if they are expanded, as these have never been resized.

We need to find out when the web expanded. Was it on firing or sizing? If on firing, high pressure or soft brass will let the web expand. Brass starts to yield at 15,000 PSI when soft (annealed), and 63,000 PSI when hard. Brass yields, but continues to get stronger up to 47,000 PSI when soft, and 76,000 PSI
when work hardened Sizing- Using the wrong lube can put pressure on the unsupported web area when full length sizing,expanding the web. Cerrosafe Chamber cast- Measurement is taken at 1 hour. Cerrosafe Link Shoulder bump FL Sizing-The WSM can spring a press,always check that the shell holder is contacting the FL die when the ram is at the top of its stroke when sizing a case. Custom Dies- Benchrest shooters use them to resize the web area. Something standard dies do not do, size the web. Hope this helps

RCBS FL dies have a vent hole to release compressed air & lube on sizing. Does Hornady have a vent?

243winxb

Yes, my Hornady 7mm WSM FL die has a vent hole drilled through the threaded portion in just about the middle of the die body.

Cerosafe:
I did make measurements one hour after the cast, and again the next morning. I was not able to find a measurable difference between the two. The Cerosafe literature says the cast will expand about .0025% after cooling 200 hours. I am just not capable of measuring .0025% of a .550" dia. object. Going to the range tomorrow and will fire a few 7mm WSM rounds for more measurements.

Jon

Jon, have you gotten to test fire any?

Jon,
I imaging you may have sorted this out now, but I had the same problem with 270 WSM case reloads, not factory new ammo. I called Redding who told me that it is a common problem. Redding suggested that I adjust the die down past the contact point, ie 1/8 to 1/4 turn. 1/72 turn equals 0.001 inch vertically. This worked for me, no more tight bolt closures. Incidentally I also shoot a Savage left hand, model 16. Been great for me in Africa

I have had similar problems in my short mags. I have several 300WSM's and one each in 270WSM and 7mmWSM. I use an RCBS press and both RCBS and forester dies. To prevent hard closing of the bolt, I had to run the sizing die down on the shell holder and then turn the die down another half turn so it would "cam over" and that solved the problem. My problem seemed to be more at the base of the neck than at the web. I just went down to my bench and miced two cases, one nickel and one brass (both Winchester) and the nickel miced .555 and the brass .554.

Ed Scarboro, FYI
I resized some 300 WSM cases yesterday with my RCBS JR. press and the handle linkage camming over as you and I described. While the ram was at the top of the stroke, it actually looked like the upper portion of the press (and die) was raising up a little. I think the steel press with the ram and most of the linkage being in compression and all made of steel, that it has enough force to do so.

I have been wanting to get a dial indicator & magnetic base to see if that is what is actually happening.

Later I re-tried my Lee Turret press that I mostly use for pistol cases these days. I could not get enough on the WSM cases to get easy bolt closing. Only My Jr. would do it 100%.

Incidentally, as I posted on the "found a new resizing lube" thread, sometime back I used to use Vaseline as a case lube on some smaller cases. Well I thought I would give it a try on the WSMs. IMO, it worked just as good as the Imperial wax (maybe even a tad better). Still used the Imperial dry neck lube for the case necks though. All resized just fine in the Jr. press. Neither of the lubes did anything for the Lee Turret.