I was looking at ordering a re-supply of lead bullets to reload. To date, I've never loaded wadcutters (the flat, no pointy type). These would be for my wheel guns.

Back years ago, when I worked in an ER, some of the worst damage from gunshot wounds were from wadcutters, even worse than hollow points. They tumble, ricochet, you could have a belly wound with the bullet veering into the chest cavity. I don't ever remember seeing a through and through, i.e. the bullet would still be in the body somewhere.

I see one supplier (Missouri) calling theirs "ppc" bullets. I'm not exactly sure what this means but assume it is an acronym for personal protection.

Some say only use factory ammo of personal protection. Since I reload, I'd prefer to use what I load and practice with.

Opinions??

The wad cutters you mention were originally designed for the target shooters firing the .38 special. The flat tipped wad cutters were also hollow base. This "skirt" would open up with the lower target rounds pressures like a Mine' ball and seal the bore of the barrel making them very accurate. I've shot thousands of them in competition out of my .38 special 1911 Target pistol.
As for a defensive round, turning the bullet around backwards produces a man-stopper that is impressive.
The double-ended wad cutters can be had as full metal jackets and I have many of these as well for my .357 Mag pistols. The do tumble when they hit a soft target.
The flat nose transmits energy into the target very well.

PPC= Practical Pistol Competition

Wouldn't be my first choice but doable.

Would beat a 22rf for a nice mellow load out of a 38 at about 800fps.

I have shot many thousands.

Only downside as a defensive round is they may be a tad slower in a re-load situation but I believe that was the famous "FBI" load in 38spl because they were proven man stoppers.

FWIW, "liabilty" issues re handloads and self defense:

http://www.john-ross.net/comments.php

The famous FBI load, also known as the Chicago load and the Dallas PD load was the Winchester 158gr lead SWC HP +P.

Remington later made a similar load.

Buffalo Bore loads a good one now, and I think they even make a non +P 158 SWC HP as well.

Some agencies started recommending using the 38 Special target 148gr Wadcutter loads for duty and off duty use for Airweight snubnosed revolvers when it became in fashion to require Officers to shoot a 50 round qualification course with these little guns.
The factories would not certify them for +P use, especially for a lot of +P use...

Personally, in a short barreled light weight 38 Special snubby I think that factory 148gr wadcutters are not a bad choice.
What they lack in expansion they kick and flash very little, are accurate and have a fair amount of penetration.

The one thing I do not like about them is that as stated above they are very slow when reloading, whether one at a time, from a speed strip or from a speed loader.

True wadcutters (mostly 38 special) are made from soft lead so you can't push them too fast or you will lead your bore.
You don't say what caliber you want to load them into.

148 HBWC handloaded upside down are very impressive in terms of expansion, even in soft targets as shown below. These pigeons were shot at about 15 m (16 yds.) from my .38 Spl S&W 60.



This being said, I do agree with Craigster that they could/would create a liability problem in front of a court of justice . You'd better think about a "good" answer when asked why you loaded your "paper target" bullet upside down

.38 special and .44 special. For my OMG guns (old man guns). My hands are such that working the slide on some of my handguns is difficult.

Andre

I have killed many a rabbit with a S&W Mod 38 Bodyguard [Airweight], with Hollow Base Wadcutters loaded backwards.

Back in the day, before I know better, I seated them almost halfway out of the case over a LARGE dose of SR 4756.

The Speer No 8 Reloading Manual shows the max load with SR 4756, with a 158gr SWC to be 9 gr in the 38 Special. My load was a little hotter than that.

It would turn a rabbit inside out...

If you use those WCs loaded backwards, they will not penetrate the 4 inches of clothing, fat, and bone to get into the vitals of anything you seriously need to penetrate in an emergency. Expansion in self defense loads is not always a good thing.

When backed up by 5.2 Unique, they will penetrate, trust me. Years ago, my load was even given the OK by the Great Jeff himself.

Show me the test data where they penetrate as well as a hard cast, or even a jacketed expanding bullet. On a thin skinned creature, yes, they might work, but again, if you have to go through a lot of hide, fat (many of today's criminals are fat and/or muscular), bone, leather jackets, etc; they won't reach the vitals.

Nobody ever pretended that inverted HBWC's would penetrate more -or even the same- as jacketed bullets. They are meant for snub-nosed .38 Spl., which are known for their lack of stopping power, using conventional ammo. We're talking about finding a substitute for the latter destined as a, last ditch, close range defence load against unprotected flesh targets. If given the choice as a defence sidearm, I'd grab one of my .45's without hesitation but, then, you don't always have the choice and if stuck with a snubbie, which is still better than nothing, it would be foolish not to try and milk the most out of it. However and as already explained above, before making a choice in terms of efficient ammo -especially handloads- it might be advised to ask yourself what a judge would think about it...

I agree; not to use them due to liability.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
I agree; not to use them due to liability.

I sort of agree. I rather face a judge than an undertaker. My problem is it is really hard for me to rack the slide due to bad thumbs on my autos. A jam or a misfire and I'd be beat or shot with my own gun. I still carry my Glock 19 or Sig P229 in the winter but most times our weather is light shirt cover for everyone, good guys and bad.

I've thought about the fat guy thing and if the first one or two rounds didn't slow them down my next three would be in his feet, ankle or face. A human's feet are quite sensitive. Even a ricochet off pavement would most likely take out a foot through the top of a shoe. As an armed citizen and not LE, I'm talking short ranges.

At any rate, use the gun you can use and practice with.

If it EVER comes up in a single court case, please let us know about it.

Federal 148 grain Wad Cutter Match.

meets the liability test if there is one.

BIG OL FLAT NOSE

But it looses accuracy round bout 50 yards . . .

Who cares, social interaction is not at 50 yards.

Little or no recoil in a little gun (throw all of the factory grips away on the little wheel guns and get something better.

Controllable and did I mention meplat? Some claim it does make a difference on the effects of impact.

I have never heard of this John Ross person,or his qualifications, which means little... But I have attended Mass Ayoob's class when Thunder Ranch was still in Texas. Clint Smith thought enough of it to have Mass come down and teach his LFI course on site. I think that it is specious, at best, for anyone to claim that this subject has never come up, in a trial, in the U.S. anywhere, anytime.
Really!!! With our legal system, I have no doubt that it has come up before, and would You want to be the defendant in a case where an unscrupulous Prosecuter with a weak case tried to sway jury opinion against you by using this emotional attack? I have served on criminal juries before and it was scary how ignorant many of our "Peers" are, and how easily they can be led. All that said, many people reinterpret what Ayoob teaches, and what he teaches is Self Defense! Self Defense goes far beyond the gunfight. After the incident, then begins the legal battle. If you are lucky enough to have had witnesses and you have an ethical Prosecutor who does not have a political/personal axe to grind with armed citizens(many do!). Do you honestly believe, in America, That there is not some ambulance chasing Shyster who, in conjunction with a "Community Activist" will take you to trial in Civil Court for the sole purpose of removing your life savings by using any emotional bullshit that they can? Are you really that naive?
Ayoob espouses using factory ammo to remove that possibility and not just that. He teaches that in civil cases, that the Plaintiff will be naming in the suit, the gun manufacturer, ammo manufacturer, holster manufaturer, etc. He will be shotgunning in an attempt to shake down the insurers of said products, in addition to you. The more you spread the "Liability" the better the chance that one or more, of said insurors, will pay off to avoid the expense of going to trial and defending their insured, this may get the Shyster enough to settle and go away! This happens every day in America, just talk to a knowlegeable Attorney! In this day and age, with our litigeous society, why would you take that chance?? Ayoob gets a lot of flak from people who have never met him, nor taken his course, but the reality is that he is a "Professional Witness" who is recognized and has testified in hundreds of criminal and civil cases. If he said that it has happenened, then that is good enough for me, but I don't really remember him quoting a specific case, but it has been more than ten years since I took the course. I wonder how many trials Mr. Ross has been called to give professional testimony in? It is easy to say that it has never come up in a trial, just like it is nearly impossible for anyone to prove that it has not. Do you think you know the circumstances of every trial in the U.S. for the last 50 years? It all boils down to "Why take the chance?" I handload for 54 different cartridges, For 38 spl. I carry the F.B.I. load that Tony(NE450#2) recommends as it still has the highest percentage of one shot stops for 38 ammo and Remington/Winchester/Federal have more liability insurance than I do! At the end of the day, it is up to you to defend yourself, your family, and your assets, if saving the cost of a box of factory ammo is worth that, then by all means, use your handloads.

The whole idea on using reversed hollow base wadcutters was to get some expansion, at snub nosed revolver velocity.

Back in the day there were not a lot of good proven self defense loads for these little guns.

There were several different makes of 148 HBWC, and they would perform differently.
Some would expand normally, others would expand and the expanded portion would break off as a "ring" after expanding and penetrating a few inches, and the base of the bullet would continue on.

You also had to be careful that the "nose" of the bullet did not blow through the base and leave the bullet lodged in the barrel.

Also, do not load them very hot the regular way, as the hollow base "skirt" can over expand/blow out, or the nose can blow through as well.

As I was using 148 HBWC for target competition in revolvers and semiautos, I had a lot of them around, of several different kinds, and I did a lot of experimention with them.

I loaded them from target velocities to some pretty high presssures.
It has been a long time so I cannot remember which 148 HBWC I liked the best, but no doubt it is no longer made now...

I never felt they were short on penetration, and I am one that believes that adequate penetration is very important.

The 148HBWC I liked, shot out of a snubby reversed, actually performed a lot like the Winchester 158gr +P SWC HP fired out of a 4" barrel.

It expanded some, and held together very well.

Of course today we have a large variety of good 38 Special loads, many specially designed for short barrels.

The +P 158gr Lead SWC HP is still a good choice. I have seen people shot with it out of 4" and 2" revolvers.

If money is not object take a look at the Buffalo Bore 38 lead bulleted loads. They also make a hard cast full wadcutter load.

The Speer Reloading manual Number 8 has a section on loading self defense loads for the snubby 38 Specials. They show loads with 158gr bullets at over 1000fps.

The British used them in the Webley 455 and the Webley 380 in both flat end and "hollow base forward" mode (as it were) as defensive loads for use against native foes.

The 455 Mk IV would look like a conventional HBWC loaded the usual way around. The 455 Mk III was like a double open ended HBWC with a hollow cavity at both front and rear end.

When I swaged bullets commercially here in the Uk using Corbin gear custom made to do that I made both the Mk III and the Mk IV in 455 calibre.



When use of the things became illegal in warfare with the Hague Regulations they were sold off cheap. The British Royal Navy Shoting eam using surplus stocks for target shooting, They did after all offer for the targetsman tall the advantages of a HBWC design.

It was for that purpose that I copied the design when I had the swaging gear made fr me by Corbin.

The Mk I was the old blackpowder 455 load, the Mk II with cordite or smokeless powder. The Mk V that looks like the Mk IV used a slightly different metal alloy with antimony and not tin and the Mk VI was the post Hague Regulation fully jacketed bullet.

The 380 version are very sacrce in collections as these calibres were not official service issue so the number of customers was fewer.

I too have played around with them years ago.

I decided that there are better bullets out there.

I like scalloped 125gr Rem jhps at 900fps out of my 2 inch they have proven to expand well on flesh.

lee440, great tirade, but there is a search engine for all legal cases called LexisNexis with 37 Billion records and cases. It has NEVER come up.

If it does, let us know. I understand the "why push it" point, but so far, you have a greater chance of getting lead poisoning from eating condors. That is not to disparage ANYONE. It is just stating a fact.