I thought that you guys might find this interesting. I loaded up some ammo for my 7mmRemMag, with pure copper 155gr bullets at 3,250fps using VV N565 powder.

Look at the difference between Nosler and Federal brass. Evidently the Nosler brass is MUCH softer than the Federal brass. This is a maximum load in the 7mmRM but with only slight bolt lift with the Nosler and none with the harder Federal brass.

Is brass THAT much different in composition??

Ugh...can't figure this picture thing out!

The Nosler brass is showing shiny ejector mark but the Federal brass shows nothing

You already figured it out; in your rifle, with your loads, the Nosler brass is not happy. Either reduce the loads or don't use it. It happens.
Oh, figure out pictures; I see; you need a pic hosting service; you can't put pictures directly on AR; it does not host pictures. We all used to use Photobucket but they hosed us so I, recently, was taught how to use Imgur.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
You already figured it out; in your rifle, with your loads, the Nosler brass is not happy. Either reduce the loads or don't use it. It happens.
Oh, figure out pictures; I see; you need a pic hosting service; you can't put pictures directly on AR; it does not host pictures. We all used to use Photobucket but they hosed us so I, recently, was taught how to use Imgur.

I'm pretty computer illiterate so no surprise LOL

I would have like to have been able to show you guys the pics, because with the Nosler brass it looks like an overload....shiny ejector mark and a bit of a swipe but then with the Federals the case looks normal.

The load workup was done with Norma without any issues

Norma was in between the two with hardness

Ken Waters always listed internal capacity of different brass. Used to think was just his OCD. Then it bit me.

Now, at minimum, I compare weights. If enough variance then check internal volume. Do this after first firing in the rifle, as new brass volume comparisons tell little.

Eg., difference between WBY and RP .300 Roy internal capacity can cause trouble. And, of course, WW .308 brass is nothing like Lake City.....or IVI stamp.

None of the above is to say there aren't also differences in brass ductility, etc.

Very interesting Sam.

Now how does pressure figure in when using once-fired brass?? I would THINK that pressure would be less than with new brass since it has been blown out to the dimensions of the chamber?

Really wish I could post a pic;(

New vs used brass doesn't matter on the pressure.
Why? The brass will expand at well under 10,000psi, while the peak pressure is well over 55,000psi.

The powder volume that counts is "chamber volume - case wall volume" which is approximated by the internal volume of the fired brass (only a slight error difference, caused by the spring back of the case)

It would do to check the sizing of the cases. Cases need to be bumped back some or they'll give much higher pressure. If the loaded round is hard to chamber chances are that it isn't sized enough. Internal case volumes vary from one to another. What is a good safe load in one make of brass might not be so in another make. Seating depth also will make for high pressure issues if the bullet is jammed instead of jumped. Even neck tension will affect pressure.

Just my 02

What? If the case is not sized enough it will give more pressure? How can that be.
(It can't.)
Yes, seating depth will affect pressure.

My bullets are well off the lands and I sized them one after the other in the same die.

I really do think that its the softness of the Norma brass.

I wish I could post a pic.I know how to email one but I can't post it here UGH

If you are boosting a 155 grain monometal bullet to 3250 fps by chronograph, not just estimated in a 7mm RM with a normal length barrel then your pressures are too high for sustained use of brass of any kind. Back off.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
If you are boosting a 155 grain monometal bullet to 3250 fps by chronograph, not just estimated in a 7mm RM with a normal length barrel then your pressures are too high for sustained use of brass of any kind. Back off.

I had this load developed for me by a well-known/reputable ammo maker, and yes the velocity was established by chrono and it isn't an estimate.

It shoots a cluster group at 200 yards and there is normal bolt-lift and no sign of pressure other than the ejector marks on the Nosler brass.He did tell me that it was developed with the ladder test and is a max load for sure but within safe range. He also told me to back off a grain when I load them for myself and am using a different lot of powder and see what I get.

I'm not really concerned about brass life since I won't be practicing with this load, and will only use it for hunting....I have a lighter load that I use for dinging steel. Even if I only get a few firings out of each case it's OK by me

That said, Stonecreek, I have been reading your posts for a LONG TIME now, and I respect whatever you have to say so I will ask you, if you don't mind, what is your opinion of my load:

7mmRemMag
26" 1:8" Criterion Barrel
155gr Copper Bullet at 3,260fps
72.0 gr of VV N565
Federal 215 match Primers
Norma Brass
3.390 tip to base

I would REALLY APPRECIATE your thoughts on my load!

About 50 years ago long before Nosler dreamed of making brass Bob Hagel tested most brands of 7mm Rem Mag brass until it expanded the case heads. His article was in Handloader Magazine. I do remember that Federal brass was the hardest at that time.
He also reported hardness by either Brinnel or Rockwell testing cases. In the hardness tests he tested the cases in several locations. Those tests including cutting the case heads off and testing the case head between the flashole and the case wall

OMG: you had someone else "develop" your load in another rifle???
NO wonder you have issues (without regard to the actual load; I didn't look it up).
NEVER do that; all rifles are different and someone else's load WILL NOT work in yours. Or it might.
I just assumed you had worked up your own loads.
It always amazes me when guys ask for a load; NO One can Give you a load.

This is getting crazier by the min. Who would have thunk.

I had this load developed for me by a well-known/reputable ammo maker, and yes the velocity was established by chrono and it isn't an estimate.

To be fair to the OP, he didn't specify the data was not developed with/for his rifle.

Some custom makers develop accuracy loads for individual rifles they sell.

quote:

Originally posted by hivelosity:
This is getting crazier by the min. Who would have thunk.

I had this load developed for me by a well-known/reputable ammo maker, and yes the velocity was established by chrono and it isn't an estimate.

Before you have a laugh at another members expense, maybe you should get the whole story?

My mistake...I didn't state it in my OP but YES, I DID send him MY RIFLE and he developed the load with it.

Anyway, I'm glad that an "Expert" here got a good laugh out of a sincere post. Unfortunately, in life, no matter where you go, there are always a few of you out there that are like that.

Not all of us little people in the sport have the knowledge and/or range facilities to do a load development, so unfortunately we have to pay for such services and seek out info/knowledge and learn more about guns and reloading in places like AR. Thankfully it has been my experience that 99% of the members here aren't douchebags and will gladly help a guy like me out

PS: the reason that I posted in the first place isn't because I am having "Issues." I started this thread because I saw a difference in markings on my cases from 2 different makers

Have a Nice Weekend

quote:

Before you have a laugh at another members expense, maybe you should get the whole story

sorry not to be-little you in any way or am I laughing at you.
The craziness is the little information that's give and trying to understand what is being presented,
As a reloader I work up all the loads for my rifles and pistols.
don't be offended.. shoot back.. Give more detail so you can get the correct help.

quote:

Originally posted by hivelosity:

quote:

Before you have a laugh at another members expense, maybe you should get the whole story

sorry not to be-little you in any way or am I laughing at you.
The craziness is the little information that's give and trying to understand what is being presented,
As a reloader I work up all the loads for my rifles and pistols.
don't be offended.. shoot back.. Give more detail so you can get the correct help.

No problem my friend and thanks for the post. My OP was a bit vague but I added more info along the way.

Have a great weekend, and and did just load up a some rounds just today going down a 1/2gr and another load for full grain. I'm hoping to chrono them this week and see what I get. I loaded all with Norma brass and didn't mix brands this time

I have no doubt that you can work up loads yourself, without paying for someone else to have all the fun. I have confidence that you can.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
I have no doubt that you can work up loads yourself, without paying for someone else to have all the fun. I have confidence that you can.

Thanks for that dpcd but in my case it was faster and easier to pay to have it done. I have to drive 70 miles to get to the nearest rifle range and at that it's only 100 yards and indoors, so you can see that it would be a huge effort and I just don't have the time to try loads, and go back and forth and try out different things.
It really sucks living in a big city.

I am a reloader in the sense that I can follow a recipe given to me or copy one from a reloading manual...as far as playing with things like seating depth and things like that I just don't have the experience.

I posted above what my load is, and a really experienced guy like Stonecreek feels that it is too hot so I take that seriously. The company that did the load for me is very experienced too so I am a bit torn, since there are no other pressure signs other than the ejector mark on Nosler brass...on the Federal case it is barely visible.

I loaded up a few rounds 1/2gr and a full gr less and I will see if the mark disappears and see what velocity I get too

Of course, any comments are appreciated.....I am learning more each day

Thank You!

quote:

Originally posted by Alfredo C:

I loaded up a few rounds 1/2gr and a full gr less and I will see if the mark disappears and see what velocity I get too

You won't have to read many threads here to unearth the position that if bolt lift feels normal, you're good to go.

I'm not in that camp, but very much respect the expertise and experience here.

Before messing with powder increments, first thing I'd do is check internal capacity of Federal and Nosler cases fired from your rifle, and having the same case length. Do not resize them, but you may want to trim all to same length.

You can use H2O as per most manuals (and Ken Waters). The manuals are mostly trying to establish load density with bullet seated to some specific COAL.

You want to know about differences in Federal and Nosler brass capacity. For such comparisons I just use a fine grain ball powder....for convenience. Flush to case mouth. Be sure not to vary fill technique. Do two or three empties each headstamp. And run the test a couple times. Determine averages for each headstamp.

That will give you a better, possibly quantitative, idea concerning need to reduce charge in Nosler brass vs accepting that you're dealing with different brass ductility.

And you might reconsider backing off powder charge in your Federal brass, as Stonecreek suggested. I would. 50-100 fps isn't worth overpressure risk, IMO.

Yes, I go by bolt lift; if it is easy to lift, that load is good in that rifle. BUT, also I inspect the primer and case head; a very flat primer, or case extrusion into the ejector hole/slot, will cause a second evaluation. Thirdly, case life.
Yes, it must suck to live in a big city. Especially now.

You can get some idea by weighing the cases. If the outside dimensions are the same and one weighs more than another then the internal capacity is different.
The heavier case has a smaller internal volume.
To use water you weigh the empty case, Carefully fill the case so the water comes level with the case mouth. Weigh this full case. The difference in weights is the water.
In one post you say the ejector mark is barely noticeable on the Federal case. If so then it's a bit warm for me. A top load should not leave any mark. Even a barely noticeable mark means the pressure is high enough to extrude the case head into the ejector hole.
IMHO this is to hot.
The loader who worked up that load for your rifle had one set of components. Your components can be the brand but if the lot was not the same on any individual component it can effect pressure.
There has been a lot of testing done on how a variation on just one component effects pressure. Even changing the lot of powder, prime, bullet or case, even if the same brand can push a safe load up into the unsafe load area.
Most of us have learned that when we change any component we back down a bit and work back up just to be sure the load is still safe.
So trying loads with a bit less powder is a good thing.
All the parts in your weapons system can withstand safe pressure. For a very long time.
The components can deform and recover at these pressures. If the pressure goes much higher then the components deform but can't recover fully, so next time they are stressed a bit more. If this continues eventually something fails. If your lucky it may be the case, like a leaky primer or split case. If not the gun may come unglued.
And we all don't want that to happen.
No matter what we all say, in the end it's up to you.
As Dirty Harry said "Do you feel lucky"
Leo

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
What? If the case is not sized enough it will give more pressure? How can that be.
(It can't.)
Yes, seating depth will affect pressure.

Indeed! In fact, if anything, an unresized case body should have more capacity than a full-length-resized one - and that should lower pressures slightly.

Here's how I develop a load. I don't like to
make several trips to the range either and I'm
only 13 miles from ours.

Decide what you want to load with and load five
of each charge. Several grains light, increase
the charge til I know it's going to be too hot.

Use a chronograph and study the velocities of
each shot compared to the others. Only the powder charge varies.
Once the vel levels off or drops you've reached
max. Inspect each case as it comes out of the chamber. Watch closely for any changes.

Once you've reached that level of vel. Back off
a grain, or two even. Keep those 3 or 4 cases
as reference for later study and compare to cases you fire later.

This way you can sort out the charge in one trip.

Stay safe, then have fun!

George

Case hardness is a factor and one obviously does not want brass to be too soft, but in your case it is most probably a case of internal volume that caused the Nosler cases to be giving pressure problems and not in the Federal cases. Fill the fired cases with water and then weigh the water contents. You will most probably find that the Nosler cases has less volume capacity compared to the Federals, therefor the combustion chamber is smaller with that load which results in higher pressure.

When I work up a load for a friends rifle I tell them to reload with the EXACT same components. My brother in law called me once and told my his rifle had quit grouping with the load I had worked up in his rifle. I told him to bring it by. I loaded up a few while he brought it over. Shot just as it had prior. He had used different primers and didn't know better. He does now.

If someone worked up the load for you in your rifle why was you switching brands of brass?

God Bless, Louis

The answer to the original question in the first post...Yes, there can be that much difference in the composition of the brass.

Note I have no expert status on what makes brass good or other wise. I read an article years ago on AccurateShooters.com called "Cartridge Brass Alloys Revealed by X-Ray Spectrometers". There are differences in what brass is made of. Note this was a snap shot of what the tester had at the time and makers change brass at their will.

I zeroed in on the Federal brass being so much copper. I had a bunch of FC 1X brass that I'd spent a lot of time getting ready to reload. During my first loading I had problems with that make of brass. I ended up shooting that brass in practice loads and then scrapping it, rather than the 5 or so loading I'd planned on. For me that brass was just too soft.

I had bought a bunch of Win. 1X brass at the same time and it was wonderful to work with.

It mostly has to do with the thickness of the brass in relation to the load..I learned long ago that its best to load two grs. less powder in the thick Rem brass than the thinner WW brass in max loads..and got the same muzzle velocity in the rem stuff, but a lot of folks comdemed Rem brass because it took less powder!! go figure...One of those many jewells of wisdom Jack O'Connor advised me of..