Howdy guys,
New to forum and fairly new to reloading. I have (almost) all the equipment I need to do things "right" but still learning a lot. I have started developing a load for my 243 but I've hit a few road blocks. I dont have an overall length case gauge yet so Im having a hard time finding the distance to the Lands. Can anyone tell me what an average OAL length my be for this gun?? I have tried several methods, such as putting a bullet in an empty case then in chamber and closing the bolt then removing the case to measure it but I have never come up with the same measurement twice. As a matter of fact, I seated the bullet (not factory crimped) to an OAL of 2.650 (below specs) and the bullet would be pushed in to random depths once put in the chamber???? This is confusing me!! Any help is appreciated, Thank you!

as a beginner I would suggest you load to a book recommended OAL.
Start with the basics and graduate to tweeking a load later when you have a better understanding.
you can make an oal case by splitting the neck and squeeze it just tight enough to hold the bullet loosely. Gently insert the case into the chamber and close the bolt ever so slowly and remove in the same manor. . Do this several time until you get a feel you can also use a permanent marker to paint the bullet and then you can judge how much the bullet engauge the rifling

I have 3 Ruger Americans and so far I have seated the bullets in all 3 to just under the magazine box maximum with no issues of hitting the rifling yet.

quote:

Originally posted by hivelosity:
as a beginner I would suggest you load to a book recommended OAL.
Start with the basics and graduate to tweeking a load later when you have a better understanding. [snip]

This ^^^^^^^^. Really.

Start with what the manuals say. Use the data they provide for your own loads. Experiment with different loads within the parameters of those manuals, including COL. Begin with the "beginning" loads and work up in 0.5 grain increments.

You'll be able to produce accurate, safe rounds just by mastering the basics and experimenting with safe loads.

Don't worry (=be distracted by) about the fine points — including seating depth — until you've mastered the basics. That includes COL.

Ignore the manual OALs; they have no idea what your particular chamber is like; they are geared to SAAMI specs for magazine lengths. (ONLY after you learn how to load for a year or so. ) Then, if you do not care about fitting ammo into your mag, you must do as outlined above, although I don't split any cases. Just bend the neck in a bit at the end enough to hold a bullet a bit. Chamber it and carefully remove it. That is your OAL with the bullet touching the throat.
But yes, definitely, do what BL said; to do; master the basics before you worry about distance form the rifling.

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
I have 3 Ruger Americans and so far I have seated the bullets in all 3 to just under the magazine box maximum with no issues of hitting the rifling yet.

this is what will tell you how deep to seat the bullets. if you are looking to seat the bullets against the lands to get perceived accuracy forget it. this rifle is not a tack driver and if you are worried because you DON'T want to hit the lands, again, the internal dimensions of the magazine will prevent that.

Thanks for the replies guys, I appreciate it. I understand that I need to follow books, and I do. Not looking for ways around guidelines or recommendations, just looking for help with the Ruger American rifle. I have found a load that shoots farily well, about .75inch at 100, and I was messing around with seating depth to "fine tune" things. I have followed books up to this point by going up in .3 grain increments and staying at, or right around the suggest OAL. I have followed the books in the past and that has never given me acceptable results with minimum loads and depths (which you all know this) and now I want to try changing up a few things such as seating depth.

Again, not looking for ways to avoid books, but does anyone have a load they would share that has worked in a Ruger American rifle? I have this 243 as well as a 30-06. I have no problem sitting at the bench and loading up different loads, but shortening a learning curve is always nice!

What everyone has said above are great guidleines, listen to them, lots of experience.
If I were to help you with a "shortcut" I would tell you for both the 30/06 and .243 that all my "pet" loads are with IMR4350.
In .243 that powder works great for 85, 90 and 100 grain bullets all seated at Sierra's suggested OAL of 2.65"
In the 30/06 also IMR4350 with 165 and 180 grain bullets seated as Sierra suggests at 3.30" OAL
I also dabble with Reloader 17 and 165 grain bullets in the 30/06.

I've found that only some of my rifles benefit from playing with the seating depth, some don't show much benefit at all and some a lot.

If you are shooting under an inch you are already near your equipments maximum potential.

Good luck with your rifle!

quote:

Originally posted by Snellstrom:
What everyone has said above are great guidleines, listen to them, lots of experience.
If I were to help you with a "shortcut" I would tell you for both the 30/06 and .243 that all my "pet" loads are with IMR4350.
In .243 that powder works great for 85, 90 and 100 grain bullets all seated at Sierra's suggested OAL of 2.65"
In the 30/06 also IMR4350 with 165 and 180 grain bullets seated as Sierra suggests at 3.30" OAL
I also dabble with Reloader 17 and 165 grain bullets in the 30/06.

I've found that only some of my rifles benefit from playing with the seating depth, some don't show much benefit at all and some a lot.

If you are shooting under an inch you are already near your equipments maximum potential.

Good luck with your rifle!

Thank you! This is the kind of help I was hoping to get. I am using Sierria 85gr HPBT right now with IMR4064. I will take a look at a few loadsd using IMR 4350. Thanks again!

quote:

posted 14 July 2018 11:33Hide Postquote:Originally posted by Snellstrom:What everyone has said above are great guidleines, listen to them, lots of experience.If I were to help you with a "shortcut" I would tell you for both the 30/06 and .243 that all my "pet" loads are with IMR4350.In .243 that powder works great for 85, 90 and 100 grain bullets all seated at Sierra's suggested OAL of 2.65"In the 30/06 also IMR4350 with 165 and 180 grain bullets seated as Sierra suggests at 3.30" OALI also dabble with Reloader 17 and 165 grain bullets in the 30/06.I've found that only some of my rifles benefit from playing with the seating depth, some don't show much benefit at all and some a lot.If you are shooting under an inch you are already near your equipments maximum potential.Good luck with your rifle! Thank you! This is the kind of help I was hoping to get. I am using Sierria 85gr HPBT right now with IMR4064. I will take a look at a few loadsd using IMR 4350. Thanks again!

Then that's what you should ask For

I guess my post was asking for a little different info, thats my fault. But I do appreciate all the replies. Do people usually have good luck with just seating the bullet a dummy round and finding the length like that? As I said before, my bullet came out longer and and shorter after about 12-15 attempts. Shouldnt it be at least a little bit uniform?

It’s really hard for me to provide useful suggestions to help you address your dilemma since I don’t know certain vital information: like if the case fit in the chamber before you modified to be a “dummy” case; whether or not it fit in the chamber after you modified it but before you inserted a bullet; whether you full-length sized your case or only neck sized it; whether or not factory rounds are also pose problems . . . and if not, are your reloads loaded to the same OAL as the factory loads.

quote:

Originally posted by B L O'Connor:
It’s really hard for me to provide useful suggestions to help you address your dilemma since I don’t know certain vital information: like if the case fit in the chamber before you modified to be a “dummy” case; whether or not it fit in the chamber after you modified it but before you inserted a bullet; whether you full-length sized your case or only neck sized it; whether or not factory rounds are also pose problems . . . and if not, are your reloads loaded to the same OAL as the factory loads.

I took a case that was twice fired and full length sized it. I fit in the chamber just fine with a bullet placed in it. Bolt closed good and it extracted fine. Did this several times and got different measurements everytime. All factory loads cycle through this gun just fine. I even loaded up a round to 2.650 and put in the chamber and it was shoved back into the case. After this I was able to twist and move the bullet. Obviously I will pull this bullet and start over. This makes me think that I was hitting the grooves...? Why else would a seated bullet move?

quote:

Originally posted by Coyote Guy:

quote:

Originally posted by B L O'Connor:
It’s really hard for me to provide useful suggestions to help you address your dilemma since I don’t know certain vital information: like if the case fit in the chamber before you modified to be a “dummy” case; whether or not it fit in the chamber after you modified it but before you inserted a bullet; whether you full-length sized your case or only neck sized it; whether or not factory rounds are also pose problems . . . and if not, are your reloads loaded to the same OAL as the factory loads.

I took a case that was twice fired and full length sized it. I fit in the chamber just fine with a bullet placed in it. Bolt closed good and it extracted fine. Did this several times and got different measurements everytime. All factory loads cycle through this gun just fine. I even loaded up a round to 2.650 and put in the chamber and it was shoved back into the case. After this I was able to twist and move the bullet. Obviously I will pull this bullet and start over. This makes me think that I was hitting the grooves...? Why else would a seated bullet move?

Checking the maximum overall cartridge length using a bullet held in the neck and closing the bolt is fraught with difficulty as you have found. The bullet will hit the lands and be pushed back into the case neck but can then drag on the lands to various degrees as you extract the cartridge pulling the bullet back out of the neck and give the indecisive measurements you are getting.

Close the bolt on an empty chamber and poke a flat ended cleaning rod down the bore until the end of the rod touches the bolt face. Carefully mark the rod at the muzzle with a fine biro or pencil. BTW the measurement from the end of the rod to the mark is the 'true' barrel length, the bolt face or breach face being the datum for barrel length.
Now put a bullet in the chamber and push up to touch the lands using a finger or a size case or anything that will push on the base of the bullet. Don't ram the bullet into the lands, just firmly touch and hold in place while inserting the rod from the muzzle until it touches the bullet. Mark the rod at the muzzle again and the distance between your two marks is the maximum overall cartridge length with that bullet seated to just touch the lands.
Then decide on just how far off the lands you want and load cartridges accordingly. Simple, no special tools required, works everytime.

john c
[quote] this rifle is not a tack driver and if you are worried because ] QUOTE..

john,
Are you talking about the rifle of the round.? as much as I don't like the 6.5 creedmoor, my brother-in-law has one, in the Ruger american predator 'green stock' with 44.0 grains of IMR4350 fed.210 primer, 120 grain sirra s.p. it is now shooting around .630-.750 On a good day of shooting it will touch 3 holes at 100 yards

quote:

Originally posted by vines:
john c
[quote] this rifle is not a tack driver and if you are worried because ] QUOTE..

john,
Are you talking about the rifle of the round.? as much as I don't like the 6.5 creedmoor, my brother-in-law has one, in the Ruger american predator 'green stock' with 44.0 grains of IMR4350 fed.210 primer, 120 grain sirra s.p. it is now shooting around .630-.750 On a good day of shooting it will touch 3 holes at 100 yards

no, i'm talking about the rifle. i have seen in print and on shooting shows and even a rep from ruger say they are made to be carried up mountains and hunted with, not shot F class. they are lightweight and have a short thin bbl. they are also notoriously hard to bed properly. my own .308 will place the first shot from a cold bbl dead into the X and the fast follow shots open up as the bbl heats up. i have read on a texas gun site numerous accounts of this same thing happening to lots of the guys there. this is of course what i have read and seen shows on and my own experience, not coming from any professional testing etc etc
for hunting purposes it groups just fine, in the 1.5" - 2.5" range. next step is going to load some berger vld 168 gr hunting hp and see what happens

Okay. I agree with Eagle27: "The bullet will hit the lands and be pushed back into the case neck but can then drag on the lands to various degrees as you extract the cartridge pulling the bullet back out of the neck and give the indecisive measurements you are getting."

I think that's most probably what's going on. The whole issue of bullet seating depth and accurately measuring it is more complicated than you might imagine. Here's what Brian Litz has to say on the matter.

Since you appear pretty interested in what's going on, I believe you will find it interesting and enlightening. He discusses both CBTO and CAOL.

Wow, thanks Eagle27-and everyone else. I will definitely give this a try.

As far as the rifle being accurate or a tack driver- I had it shooting MOA at 500 yards with 120gr ELD-M. The 129SST did not shoot this good and thats why Im going to try and load up a few 143ELD-X and see how good I shoot it.

I was sloppy in my reference to Brian Litz's disquisition.

Part 1 describes issues related to measuring COAL.

Part 2 deals with issues related to measuring CBTO.

My appologies for not having been clear the first time.

quote:

Originally posted by Coyote Guy:
Howdy guys,
New to forum and fairly new to reloading. I have (almost) all the equipment I need to do things "right" but still learning a lot. I have started developing a load for my 243 but I've hit a few road blocks. I dont have an overall length case gauge yet so Im having a hard time finding the distance to the Lands. Can anyone tell me what an average OAL length my be for this gun?? I have tried several methods, such as putting a bullet in an empty case then in chamber and closing the bolt then removing the case to measure it but I have never come up with the same measurement twice. As a matter of fact, I seated the bullet (not factory crimped) to an OAL of 2.650 (below specs) and the bullet would be pushed in to random depths once put in the chamber???? This is confusing me!! Any help is appreciated, Thank you!

If you do not have a overall case length gauge the solution is simple.

Buy hornady bullets with a cannelure and seat to the midpoint of the cannelure.

I did this for years when all I had was a simple Lee loader.

Or buy a gauge and some manuals.

Make Your Own Length-to-Lands Gauge — Quick & Easy
http://bulletin.accurateshoote...ds-gauge-quick-easy/

you could also learn how to do a pound cast of the rifles throat and barrel then you'd know exactly where everything is and how big around it is.
stuff that's handy to know like the length of the chamber and how long your necks can be.
the shape of your throat.
where the rifling starts.
how large your neck area is. [allowed case thickness]

rather than trying to find the rifling with a magic marker, I find centering a good bullet in the middle of the barrel produces better results.

quote:

Originally posted by Lamar:
you could also learn how to do a pound cast of the rifles throat and barrel then you'd know exactly where everything is and how big around it is.
stuff that's handy to know like the length of the chamber and how long your necks can be.
the shape of your throat.
where the rifling starts.
how large your neck area is. [allowed case thickness]

rather than trying to find the rifling with a magic marker, I find centering a good bullet in the middle of the barrel produces better results.

I think you are talking about stuff that is WAYYY over my head! Definitly dont have the knowledge to make a cast of anything. I dont know what you mean by centering a bullet in the middle of the barrel?

sometimes you have to sit in the reloading room and just think your way through a situation.

look at your rifle from the side.
in the middle of your barrel is a centerline.
it is the dead center of a good straight barrel.

now think about your chamber.
and your firing pin.
your firing pin should point straight down your barrel.
[quite often it doesn't]
the trick is to line up the centerline of that line down your barrel that points at the firing pin with the centerline of your bullet.
not have the bullet tipped, or laying on the bottom of the chamber, or pointing off to the side.

ok, so lets assume that my firing pin isnt striaght. How does that help me find the OAL to the lands?

quote:

Originally posted by Coyote Guy:
ok, so lets assume that my firing pin isnt striaght. How does that help me find the OAL to the lands?

IT isn't,
IT doesn't,

Most rifles the firing pin is not dead center yet they somehow still shoot great groups (sarcasm).
Don't get side barred by non essential information.
Remain focused!

If I may make a suggestion, that I believe has already been talked about a bit...

First, a question, is this to be a hunting rifle?

If the answer to that question is yes, the figure out what the max COAL is for your magazine that will allow the rifle to cycle 100%. Then chamber a few rounds to make sure you are not making contact with the lands. If they are you'll need to back off some. If you have clearance, then operate from the MAG OAL and don't worry about how far you are from the lands unless you see pressure issues as you work up.

My experience has shown primer substitutions make a much bigger difference than COAL.

Second, you mentioned being able to move the bullet on a loaded cartridge, if that is the case then you don't have enough neck tension and that gets back to die adjustments. It will also lead to accuracy issues.

How do I adjust the neck tension in the die?

Well, it depends on the type of die you are using. I would defer to the manufacture's instructions for that.

The vast majority of my dies are Lee and RCBS. I know of two separate instances, one with a .308 and the other a .243 in which not having the dies set up properly allowed me to spin or push the bullets in the casing. Both times I had poor accuracy and simply going back and re-setting my dies per the factory instructions solved the problem.

I have Lee dies, I will look into this and see if I can get it figured out.

I started my 30-06 on 4064 over 50 years ago and after that time I heard all the time that 4350 was THE powder. I finally tried 4350 and my 30-06 does better on 4064 as does my .243.