What has been your experience with these super slow-burning powders? It seems they would be very good in the big OVERBORE cartridges, like 264 WM, 300 RUM, 30-378, 25-06 Ackley Improved, 7mm STW, etc. BUT, they don't fair well on QL, with the exception of AR2218, which is not available in the USA except as H50BMG (which doesn't fair well on QL). I'd love to get your thoughts and experience.

169. N170 (Vihtavuori)
170. 24N41 (Vihtavuori)
171. 50 BMG (Hodgdon)
172. AR2218 (ADI)(Same as H50BMG)
173. 20N29 (Vihtavuori)

AI, you could probably include AA8700 in that list. I gave it a try in my 7mm Dakota, it's ok but I like IMR7828 better for the 160gr bulelts. Maybe w/ a 175gr?

Hodgdon 5010 is some awfuuul slow powder to try and shoot. Top velocity in a 7mm Rem Mag is
about 2300 witha 175 grain slug

Of that list, I've tried H50BMG in the 300 RUM. I don't like it at all so far. I've just ordered a big jug of WC872 to try and get back to my H870 happy place.

I tried 50BMG with the .30-378 WBY,I didnnt like the fouling inside the barrel,I think the 50BMG is meant for the 50 BMG rifle...

Retumbo is as slow as I have settled on thus far. My 300RUM makes close to 3300fps with a 216gr pill. The H870 was a disappointment with fouling and low MV. A pard tried the H870 in a 7mm RUM with heavy pills and no use.

JustC, 3300 fps with a 216 gr. bullet is HOT! - very likely over 65,000 PSI, even with a 26" barrel.

AIU, I performed an experiment some 4 years back with a few of the powders you mentioned and few you didn't. Loaded the powders listed below in a standard 25-06 custom rifle with a Sako action and 24" Hart barrel. All loads were shot on the same day/range session. Each powder was loaded into 3 Rem cases. The load was the same at 57 gr. with a Sierra 120 gr. HPBT Gameking bullet and Fed 215 primer. The barrel was cleaned between powders. I did this experiment to determine where my recently purchased surplus WC-860 fit in (burning rate) with some of the other powders I commonly use.

H-1000 2921 fps avg. SD-16 1.045" group @ 100 yards
H-870 2510 fps avg. SD-4 0.823" group @ 100 yards
N-170 2708 fps avg. SD-27 0.883" group @ 100 yards
WC-860 2439 fps avg. SD-21 0.749" group @ 100 yards

At the time, I didn't have any of the Viht 50BMG powders (24N41 & 20N29) nor did I have H-50BMG. My standard load with this bullet is 49 gr. AA-4350 & a Rem LR primer. Switching to a Fed LR primer with this load would open groups to nearly an inch where as my 4350 load would consistently place 5 shots into 1/2" at 100 yards. Velocity with 4350 is close to 2900 fps. I now have H-50BMG and will soon have Viht 24N41 & 20N29 powders. I will perform another test similar to this one but include a 338-416 IMP along with the 25-06 case. Testing these two very different cartridges should make for an interesting shooting session. I will also throw in some newly acquired WC-872 to see how it fits in with the WC-860 and other commercial powders. Will post the new results once I have them.

He has returned!

Anyway, I'll add of my fond memories of H870, absence makes the heart grow.... I tend to forget the lot to lot variations, etc--it was also very prone to this. So I remember the good lots.

So, when I decided to try WC872, I ordered an 8 lb jug of it. It will either suck or work well. But whatever it does, it will do it with the same vigor for 500 rounds or so, which should more than finish this barrel off.

Jon A, I've been using slow, milsurp powders, e.g., WC 860 and IMR 5010, for 12 years with a high degree of success (accuracy). However, since they are slow, you may not reach the velocity you're looking for, plus, they often leave quite a bit of unburned powder in the bbl. (and sometimes the chamber). On the other hand, they are ideal for cast bullets and velocities of 1,700-2,100 fps in cartridges similar to the .30-06 and .308Win., but not the .243Win. As mentioned in a previous post, you'll need LR magnum primers and heavy bullets (jacketed and cast) to maximize their efficiency.

AIU,..thats from a 30" barrel, but accuracy seems to be a at slightly over 3200fps (3208).

Paul, yup, that's what I need. I'm specifically getting it for the 300 RUM and 240 grain (or maybe even heavier in the future) bullets. Retumbo is too fast to be optimum here, lagging behind my old H870 load by more than 100 fps. I use Fed 215's for everything in this round.

I must have had the slow lot of H870. I couldn't put enough in the case to make a difference. It was dirty and slow with 220gr SMK's. I would LOVE to think the WC872 would run her clean and fast at 216/220gr. The price sure is right.

The lot I have of WC 872 is very similar in buring rate to the lot I have of WC 860. The 872 seems to burn cleaner and give better overall performance. Both powders are significantly slower than H-870 (and H-870 was very similar to both H-570 and 5010 in burning rate). WC 872 works beautifully in my .264's and a 7mm STW, with most combination requiring a virtual case full, sometimes compressed.

I have no experience with any of the ultra slow V powders, nor with H50 BMG.

Where do you get WC872?

http://www.gibrass.com/

Big Stick, Your experiment results with the 25/06 were interesting, and seem to compare with mine bout 2 months ago using a 25/06 AI.

I tested the 130 grain BCFBHP and 142 grain ULD Wildcat bullets in my Custom 25/06 AI, which is built on a Sako L61R action, Shilen 24 inch SS barrel, and Fajen Laminated Stock. The results using Rem Cases, and Rem 9 1/2M primer were:
130 grain BCFBHP Wildcat bullet
60.0 grains - H1000 - 3019 fps (Max,.545moa)
61.0 grains - H1000 - 3059 fps (Above Max)

60.0 grains - Re 25 - 3091 fps
61.0 grains - Re 25 - 3158 fps (Max, .520moa)

60.0 grains - VN170 - 2925 fps
61.0 grains - VN170 - 2969 fps (Mild, .605moa)

65.0 grains - H870 - 3038 fps (Max, .185 moa)
66.0 grains - H870 - 3044 fps (Above Max, .635)

142 grain ULD Wildcat bullet
60.0 grains - AR2225 - 2997 fps
61.0 grains - AR2225 - 3048 fps (Max)

64.0 grains - H870 - 2953 fps
65.0 grains - H870 - 3018 fps (Max)

AR2225 is sold in the US by Hodgdon as Retumbo, and as already mentioned AR2218 is sold as H50BMG.

Unfortunately we don't have access to the Mil Surplus W860 and 872 in Oz, as they would be ideal with the heavy bullets I want to test, especially with the 156 grain ULD .25 cal Wildcat, and the 100 and 107 grain .224 Wildcat.

I would certainly be interested in hearing the outcome of the further testing you outlined.
Brian.

Brian W, I have a 25-06 AI. Like you I'm getting outstanding performance with Re25. I like 63 grs. Re25 behind a 115 gr. NBT. With a 26" barrel they run right at 3400 fps. This is maximum, and I would guess your 61 gr/130 gr. load is also maxium. Do you get loose primer pockets with it?

quote:

130 grain BCFBHP Wildcat bullet
60.0 grains - Re 25 - 3091 fps
61.0 grains - Re 25 - 3158 fps (Max, .520moa)

AIU, Three months ago I tested Re 25 for the first time in my 25/06AI with the Nosler 115 BT. The temperature was about 85F, and 61.0 grains produced 3218 fps, and the max load of 62.0 grains delivered 3293 fps, and a group of .625moa.

The max load of 61.0 grains of Re 25 with the 130 grain BCFBHP Wildcat bullet was worked up in a temperature of about 68F. I will work up to maximum pressure again when the temp reaches about 90F, and expect that the maximum load will probably be at least 1.0 grain less.

I had previously been using a load of 63.0 grains H1000 with the Nosler 115 grain BT, and in the 24 inch barrel, this delivered between 3240 and 3275 fps depending on temperature, with excellent accuracy.(.25 to .400 moa)

However, my supply of H1000 was nearly exhausted so for that reason I tested the Re 25, and also bought some AR 2217. (supposed to be the same powder as H1000)

The 63.0 grain load of H1000 produced 3,271 fps at a comfortable maximum pressure, but the first shot of 63.0 grains AR 2217 produced 3482 fps and a blown primer. I had taken the risk of not working up to max, due to insufficient available cases, and got "burned".

Obviously this lot of AR 2217 is about 2 - 3 grains faster than my supply of H1000 which I had been using for about 7 years.