what kind of consistency are you guys getting with most of your bullets, most of the ones I have worked with lately have been within .004 max spread, however I bought some nosler 125 btip seconds and was getting measurements all over the map, spreads around .012 where common with those, is this pretty abnormal?? I have been using a stoney point bullet comparator

CC, I don't want this to come off sounding sarcastic but because they are inconsistent is probably why they are "factory seconds". They don't meet standards so they are sold off as "seconds" cheaper. The best ones, aside from custom bullets, are the sierra matchkings.

quote:

Originally posted by Ammo Troop:
CC, I don't want this to come off sounding sarcastic but because they are inconsistent is probably why they are "factory seconds". They don't meet standards so they are sold off as "seconds" cheaper. The best ones, aside from custom bullets, are the sierra matchkings.

I can agree with that, however from what everyone has told me the factory seconds are just seconds because of cosmetic defects, I guess in this case they are seconds because they suck, I could also tell this when I shot them, they didn't shoot particulary well in either rifle I shot them in

how bad did they suck?
what size groups??

I did a bunch of this testing a few years back, mostly on 168 gr match bullets, out of what I tested Nosler, Sierra, Hornady, and Speer seems like your .004 variation is about right on,with the Nosler Comp besting that by a small margin. Then for grins I checked some bulk Remington CL from Midway, IIRC .014 variation, then 2 different lot numbers of 270/150 Hot Core Speers .027" WOW, looks as if lot to lot variations can be quite large. At that time I was using the Hornady micrometer seater stem, which you can buy seperate to use on their seater die, seating all bullets long and adjusting for each bullet to get .003" jump for each round, slow process. Now cast bullets from a single cavity mold can beat the best of the best for ogive location. I would imagine that bulk blem bullets are from many different lots, hence the large variation. My .02

quote:

Originally posted by GREYGHOSTt:
how bad did they suck?
what size groups??

in the tikka they ran right at MOA, and the winchester 670 they were about 2moa, which for both rifles sucks, I guess I will just use them as plinkers or fowlers or something

You can seat each round individually for the jump to lands you want, bet once you do that they will shoot as good as any, but a slow loading process.

update these where not seconds!!! I thought I had got them with my last shooters pro shop order but not, these came new from cabelas

In my experience, Nosler bullets have been among the best in the entire industry when it comes to lot-to-lot consistency and overall quality -- and that includes the "seconds, which offer the same accuracy and terminal performance as the "firsts." The Nosler seconds suffer only from cosmetic issues: i.e., stains, microscopic scratches that did not polish out or tips of a non-standard color (may have been an overrun produced for a specific ammo company).

For sheer inconsistency in weights and ogives, pick up a box of newly-manufactured Speers and check them out. You'll be amazed at the QC -- or the lack thereof...

Hey cc

When you measure with a comparator you are really noting the difference in the measurements from the base of the bullet to the ogive.

When seating, any variance in distance-to-lands would be because of a variance in measurement from where the seating stem contacts the ogive curve to where the ogive curve first reaches caliber diameter. That variance would probably be a lot less than the variance from the base to ogive. The base to ogive differences will show up as the bullet being seated to a different depth.

A real good competition seater will seat most bullets to the same distance-to-lands even though there is a larger difference in the comparator readings.

I was using an RCBS bullet comp bullet seater,

woods, so what you are saying is the seater plug is hitting a different spot on the nose of each bullet causeing it to not seat the same?? this may be true however the ogive is still moving around when I take my readings, when I chamber the rounds the ogive is at different distances from the lands, I don't think this is a good thing??

quote:

When you measure with a comparator you are really noting the difference in the measurements from the base of the bullet to the ogive.

That same comparator is made to measure length from the head of the cartridge to bore dia on the ogive of a loaded round, when you set this measurement the same, jump will be the same.

Sorry, guess I wasn't very clear. The seater plug will hit each bullet in the same place and it will seat each bullet the same distance from that point to the case head.

I thought you got all that variation by measuring the bullet itself before you seated it



If you are getting that much variation by measuring with the comparator after the bullet is seated



then you have a problem with your seating die. IME, you should not have that much variance after seating the bullet. The seating die seating stem contacts the bullet at some point between the point on the ogive where it reaches full caliber diameter and the bullet tip. It will contact the same point each time.

Lets say on a 30 caliber die the seating stem contacts the point on the ogive where it measures .256" (hypothetical only, hard to measure exactly)



and the comparator measures the bullet at the point on the ogive where it measures .284"



then the seating die will seat all the bullets to the same measurement which is the distance from the lip of the seating stem to the case head. If the bullets themselves vary in measurement from the ogive to the base then the bullet will just be seated a little deeper or shallower. The only variance that will effect distance-to-lands variation will be the variation of the bullets from the place where the seating stem contacts the ogive and where the ogive reaches full diameter.

woods funny I have many of the same equipment you have, one thing I have noticed is with those RCBS comp seater sometimes if you watch the top of the die, the part you can turn it slightly rises up when you seat the bullet, I have 3 of these comp seaters and they all do the same thing, the thing is I don't think the seater plug contacts most bullets very close to their ogive during the seating process

Woods; if the profile of the ogives is not exactly the same, meaning the distance between the two points where the ogive is land dia and where the seater stem contacts the ogive, as in different lots, then you will still get variation in jump to lands. It would be like seating a spire point and a round nose, or a Hornady and a Sierra(this is an exagerated example) bullet with the seater die set the same, and expecting the same jump. The bullets produced out of one set of dies constitute one lot number, you mix those lot numbers up, as in bulk blems, and you won't get same jump unless you measure and seat each bullet to the same head to ogive measurement on the comparator. Get two different lots of the same bullets, for me this was 270 cal/150 gr sp, the seater die was still set up from loading the first box-lot # with .015 jump, then when I ran out of that lot I started on the new lot, when you tried chambering a round the bolt wouldn't close because some of the new lot of bullets was into the rifling. This was the worst example I've ever found, .027" difference, but I'm sure there are others that make it into customers hands for loading. I contacted Speer and they said they showed no problems with production runs of any 270 bullets, I sent in the rest of the box, and a week later 2 boxes with the same lot numbers were shipped to me, and a note that said thanks for using Speer bullets.

Great flicks Woods.

quote:

Originally posted by cummins cowboy:
...I don't think the seater plug contacts most bullets very close to their ogive during the seating process

Hey CC, Try this:
1. Take the Seating Stem out of the Die.
2. Take a Bullet and place it into the Seating Cup.(Do this for 4-6 Bullets.)
3. If it "wobbles around", then the Tip of the Bullet is touching the inside of the Cup and your Seating consistency will be non-existant.
4. If it does not "wobble around" then the Cup is correct for that Bullet Profile and it is supposed to Seat the Bullets all at the same distance.
5. If the problem is #3, you should contact your Die Supplier and see if they have one to fit your specific Bullet, you can put a Release Agent on a Bullet and "Bed" the Cup(but getting it all straight can be tricky), or you can Drill the Cup a bit deeper to relieve the Tip of the Bullet(have a spare Cup if you go this route).
6. If the problem is in Step #4, then it is a Thingy problem which is not uncommon.
-----

If any of you are Seating the Bullets so the Overall Cartridge Length(OCL) is the exact same, then you are creating an Accuracy problem, not solving one. This is because the Length of the Bullets typically vary a bit from Bullet-to-Bullet.

Best of luck to you all.

quote:

Originally posted by cummins cowboy:
one thing I have noticed is with those RCBS comp seater sometimes if you watch the top of the die, the part you can turn it slightly rises up when you seat the bullet

I'll have to watch, I never noticed it before

quote:

Originally posted by swheeler:
Woods; if the profile of the ogives is not exactly the same, meaning the distance between the two points where the ogive is land dia and where the seater stem contacts the ogive, as in different lots, then you will still get variation in jump to lands.

exactly

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
4. If it does not "wobble around" then the Cup is correct for that Bullet Profile and it is supposed to Seat the Bullets all at the same distance.

6. If the problem is in Step #4, then it is a Thingy problem which is not uncommon.

Hey H C, be careful, you are coming close to what mike was talking about the other day

quote:

Originally posted by mho:

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by Varmitshooter:
I have ...the stony point coparitor ....what should i do ...

Originally posted by Varmitshooter:

Sell it to Woods, or toss it in the trash.

If you are using your Cartridges in a Bolt Action, set them to P-FLR and forget you ever got suckered into buying the "Thingy".

Varmitshooter, you can safely ignore Hot Core's comment. Although a very experienced reloader and (I assume) in general an intelligent guy, Hot Core seems to suffer from pavlovian conditioning to the term "Stoney Point Headspace Gauge".

It seems every time the poor lad encounters the term, he develops a bad case of frothing at the mouth, and has to jump into the discussion regardless of whether he has anything constructive to offer or not. I'm not quite sure if there is a scientific term for his condition, but we get to observe it regularly here.

- mike

You know, you really don't have to be scared of the "thingies" they are just inanimate objects like dies and presses and other reloading equipment!

quote:

You know, you really don't have to be scared of the "thingies" they are just inanimate objects like dies and presses and other reloading equipment!

Some of these little gizmos can be quite enlightening, especially someone WANTS to be enlightened!

quote:

you really don't have to be scared of the "thingies"

How did you get the mistaken idea that I'm "scared" of the Thingys? I just realize the actual value of them is right at the same value that I set my Headspace - Zero!

The only Reloading tool I can think of that has "mislead more people" than the Thingys is the (improper use of a) chronograph.