Not sure of those who frequent this 'Reloading' section also visit the 'Medium Bore Rifles' section, but just in case, I'd like feedback on this topic from a reloader mindset, pretty please.

Clicky

.30-06 vs .308 is a Ford Chevy arguement. Or more for the thread a Remington vs Savage arguement.

From a purly reloading stand point the .308 uses a little less powder. As far as accuracy goes the gun is more of a factor than the round. From a balistics side the .308 is a little slower, not much 100-150 fps, and has a little lighter max bullet weight. For me the choice was made when I picked up a used Savage and said the only thing wrong with it was it was a .30-06 not a .308.

For your questions, Bambi/Ivan will never know the difference. Why care about his AK and ammo? You have a superior weapon. If you pick up the AK throw it away when it's empty. For the Savage/Remington arguement, Savage is better out of the box, Remington has more aftermarket parts and a better aftermarket trigger.

I'd suggest your best way to settle the dilemma is for "you" to study the External Ballistics Tables in the back of most Bullet Manufactures Manuals. Pick the MAX attainable Velocity for the 308Win and use 100fps Slower when you run the Loads through your head. With the 30-06 pick the MAX attainable Velocity and add 200fps and run those Loads through your head.

You need to see which Bullets provide the optimum "balance" of Energy, Wind Drift and Drop Rate at distance. To help you out a bit, one of the 150gr, or 155gr Bullets, should meet whatever "your" Balance Definition happens to be in the 308Win. Same with 165gr in the 30-06. And 180gr in a 300WinMag.

Best of luck to you.

I love the '06 but, from a cost perspective for reloading, the 308 is the better of the two. The once fired brass is cheap and you use less powder.

So, you can shoot more for less with the .308 which has nearly as good ballistics as the 30-06, so that might give a little edge to the .308.

One other thing to consider is the recoil is a little less with the .308, so you may enjoy shooting it more per outing than you would the 30-06 and you might be more accurate with the .308 since it would tend to not produce a flinch as quickly as a 30-06 MIGHT.

quote:

I'd suggest your best way to settle the dilemma is for "you" to study the External Ballistics Tables in the back of most Bullet Manufactures Manuals. Pick the MAX attainable Velocity for the 308Win and use 100fps Slower when you run the Loads through your head. With the 30-06 pick the MAX attainable Velocity and add 200fps and run those Loads through your head.

And how would you know any of this since you refuse to use a chronograph??

And how would you know any of this since you refuse to use a chronograph??

LOL, Perfect, take that Hot Core!!

Antelope you hit this one out of the ballpark!!

Good for You

Jerry

The difference is the pedantic nonsense that internet forums thrive on.

The practical difference is none, but what fun would that be?

I own a .308, cause I think it a better choice for commies. If you were talking zombies, now then I'd pick the 30-06.

-nosualc

I have both. Recoil is very interesting. My .06 is a custom Remmington with a pachmyer recoil pad on it. I loaded 200 grain accubonds with as much Re22 as possible for close range black bears. Recoil doesn't feel that bad. This rifle weighs less than my Sako 308.

The Sako wears an Obermeyer bbl and the action is heavy. I loaded the 150 ballistic tip with the max load of IMR4064 that the rifle would shoot for deer in KY. I loaded it heavy because those loads shot best.

That 308 load kicks harder than the 200 gr 30.06 with the 200 ABs. The 308 has a McM stock with whatever recoil pad comes on it.

I prefer to shoot that .06.

Of course, you know the origins of the .308Win. It was to create a shorter round that would allow machineguns to cycle faster. The '06 is a cartridge designed to hit a target like a deer (or a man) at 300-500 yards. That type of warfare went into the history books after WWII. We engage targets much closer now-- no need for such a high-powered cartridge like the '06 anymore. The .308Win is great for targets 200-400 yards away. Shoots flat enough to hit the enemy with iron sights. Just my opinion and thoughts. I could be wrong...

With 150gr and under bullet weights the 308 will run neck& neck with the 30-06. Move to the heavier weights and the 06 will gain a hundred fps over the 308.
99% of hunters and game will never see the difference between them.

quote:

99% of hunters and game will never see the difference between them.

To the guys who say there isn't much difference between the 308 and 06, you haven't spent much time with either over a cronograph. Book velocities with lighter bullets, that favor the 308, and put it in the same pocket with the 06, well load the 06 up to the same pressures, and see you 308.
Jerry

quote:

Originally posted by Antelope Sniper:
how would you know any of this since you refuse to use a chronograph??

You have missed a lot of my posts where I mentioned that I had access to three different chronographs and used them quite a bit over 25years or so. Not realizing that, I understand your all's(AS & Jerry) confusion.

Once you both actually have some first-hand experience(25yrs) using a chronograph, it "might" finally dawn on you what a total waste of time they are.

Then again, you all(AS & Jerry) might never make that connection.
-----

By the way, Not_Infringed, If you do want pure accuracy, between those two, it will be very difficult to beat a 26" Bull Barrel 308Win M700 VLS. They come with Min Spec Chambers as do all the "V - series" Remington rifles that I've seen. That doesn't mean a 30-06 can't shoot well, it is just that the 308Win does have an Accuracy advantage. I base that strictly on a whole lot of actual first-hand experience,unlike my buddies AS & Jerry.

Hey Hot Core, you only been doin this for 25 years, ROOKIE! Since I have been reloading since the 60'S, that by your standard must make me the ABSOLUTE authority here.

I'll tell you this, all my comments are based on shooting experience, either hunting or shooting at the range or in matches.

Further, The Remington 700 you refer too, take that rifle in 308, the same rifle or similar in 30-06, go to the range, set up your CRONOGRAPH, lay them both on the bench, shoot, and measure the groups, if there is a measureable difference, it will be in increments of.001, for our discussion no difference. Ah, but the velocities, now for hunting that is an absolute advantage for the 06.

Jerry

Hot Core: I've been reloading for over 30 years, and my chronograph data book is over 4 inches thick. In anaylising this data, I've learned many things I could not have learned by just shooting groups. Your above claim might be evidence that you have learned something from a chronograph as well, and that they are not worthless. As for your paper charts in the back of the book. Again, why would I want to use something so antiquated. Those charts are all set for Sealevel. Most of my shooting is at altitudes between 5,000 and 11,000 feet, and a 78% atmosphere. While those old book might be fine for you flat land easterners that never shoot over 75 yards, out here we need to do things a little different. I'll stick with my ballistics program, thank you very much. But I'm sure your books will keep you good company in your cave.

Now I understand that chronographs and strain gages are not allowed as part of you premitive 7th Century religion, but the rest of us are not willing to convert to your nutty little cult. So do us all a favor, take off the suicide vest, crawl back into your cave, and go back to knapping flint. If you are ever visited by Martin Luther, and experience the Reformation, then you can come back outside and rejoin your enlightened Elders.

Damn, I thought I'd walk back itno the .308/.30-06 debate. I guess I'm still an amature because Iv'e picked up stuff from both of ya.

FWIW, I watched an Army team compete in a 1K match. They were shooting M14s in .308. With receiver sights.
I've never owned a .308 but I would imagine from an accuracy point between it and the '06, it would be like the .222 versus the .223. A fellow would have to be a lot better shot than me to figure out which one was the most accurate. And then we'd only be comparing two rifles.

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Eden:
Hey Hot Core, you only been doin this for 25 years,

Your Reading Comprehension appears to be lacking a bit. No wonder you "think" the 270Win is good for something besides Coyotes.

I never said above how long I've Reloaded, but it is more than 5 decades. Lots of folks on here have more first-hand experience Reloading than I do though.
-----

Hey AS, I'm glad for you. As I said, once you and Jerry get some experience, you all may or may not understand "Why" a chronograph is pretty much worthless.

ROFLMAO!!!! You bunch of newbies. I was born with a Herter's "C" press in my hands.
And at our range, we had a system of lights and people positioned so when the bullet went passed the near one, he would turn the lights on and when it went pased the downrange guy, he would turn them off. We would time the elapse between the two and could compute velocity, energy, trajectory and was working on a formula to compute pressure when the chronograph was invented and so we lost interest.

Hot Core, Here is what the forum members think of the .270 Win for deer:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...41/showpollresults/Y


Anytime you are this far in the minority YOU are the extremist. Now go crawl back into your cave.

Looks like at least " 1 " person in the Poll knew what he was talking about.

As for the rest of those fine folks, they are probably just funning with you. But, it could simply be most are shooting Coyote size Deer and have the impression it is really a Deer capable cartridge.

If that is what you want to use, then that is what you should use.

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Eden:
To the guys who say there isn't much difference between the 308 and 06, you haven't spent much time with either over a cronograph. Book velocities with lighter bullets, that favor the 308, and put it in the same pocket with the 06, well load the 06 up to the same pressures, and see you 308.
Jerry

Both are loaded by the factory to 60K psi the SAAMI max spec pressure for both. The 06 of course burns 10 gr more powder which will show in velocity, but it gains it less then 100fps vel, if that, in a lot of rifles with the lighter bullets.
Of course I guess we could load both up to 65K psi and see what happens.
I don`t consider a vel variation of the same magnitude you can see in ES over 20 rds with some ammo to be a big deal breaker.

Arguments about the efficacy/usefulness of chronographs aside (don't you guys tire of bickering with HC?), let's presume that you really do net 100fps of speed advantage using the .30-06.

Comparing the ballistics of an Accubond 165gr bullet at 2650fps and 2750fps, JBM says that your 100fps delta will yield you 11 extra yards of Max PBR (336 vs 325) or a whopping 1.3" less drop at 300 yards.

The vast majority of shooters can't hold 1.3" (~.5 moa) at 300 yards.

The .30-06 gets you 100 fps faster than a .308? Big whoop.

-nosualc

I get a kick out of such cliches as "cost efficient" climate conditions, accuracy, load density and so fourth between two cartridges that are basically twins.

At the end of the day you won't save a fifty cent piece. Accuracy is determined by which one has the best barrel, best bedding, best crown etc. Load density means the case is full of powder, end of that story..

Pick one, that is your only choice and there is no difference..I'd go with the 06 in a std. length action and the .308 in a short action..My bolt gun is an 06, my lever gun is a short action 99 Savage in .308..I use the lever horseback and the 06 when hunting on foot, I hunt deer, elk, bear with both.

I have shot a lot of game with both calibers, and can't tell the difference, but I could add another 15 calibers that fall into that catagory. They are all about the same

Ok here's some numbers out of my 30-06/24"bbl, 150 grain Spitzer, 3150 fps. 180 Nosler Partition 2875fps. You compare. These are loads I have tested, and that is what I base my statements upon. This is not a knock on the 308, as I shoot that also, but common the 308 or the 358 Winchester, or the 260 Rem, won't develope the velocties of the larger cartridge no matter how much you may wish it! You can't load up, but you can load down. Besides, if all I get is 100fps more, I still get more!!

Jerry

quote:

Originally posted by Ol` Joe:
Both are loaded by the factory to 60K psi the SAAMI max spec pressure for both.

SAAMI Pressures

Data from the current SAAM specs (2004)
Please note that some are in psi and some cup



SAAMI Rifle Pressure Specifications (Maximum Average pressure)
All Piezo measurements unless specified)
Cartridge Pressure (Max Avg) Cartridge Pressure (Max Avg)
5 mm RFM 37,000

.30-30 Winchester 42,000
.17 Rem 52,000 cup

.30-06 Springfield 60,000

.22RF Short 21,000



.22RF Long & LR 24,000

.300 Savage 47,000
.22WRF 19,000

.300 Weatherby Magnum 65,000

.22WRM 24,000

.300 H&H Mag 54,000 cup




.300 Win Mag 64,000

.218 Bee 40,000 cup

.303 British 49,000

.22-250 Remington 65,000


.307 Win 52,000 cup
220 Swift 54,000cup

.308 Winchester 62,000

.222 Remington 50,000




.222 Rem Mag 50,000 cup

.32 Win Special 42,000

.223 Remington 55,000

.32 Rem 37,000 cup

.243 Winchester 60,000

.32-20 16,000 cup

.25-06 Remington 63,000

.32-40 30,000 cup

.250 Savage 45,000 cup

8mm Mauser 35,000

.256 Win 43,000 cup

8mm Rem Magnum 65,000

.257 Roberts 54,000


.338 Win Mag 64,000

.257 Roberts +P 58,000

.348 Win 40,000 cup

.264 Win Mag 64,000


.35 Remington 33,500

.270 Winchester 65,000

.351 Win SL 45,000 cup

.280 Remington 60,000

.35 Whelan 52,000 cup

.284 Winchester 56,000

.350 Rem Mag 56,200 cup

6mm Remington 65,000

.356 Win 52,000 cup

6 mm BR-REM 52,000 cup
.358 Win 52,000 cup

6.5x55 46,000 cup


.375 H&H 62,000

6.5 Rem Mag 56,200 cup

.375 Win 52,000 cup

7mm BR Rem 52,000 cup

.38-40 Win 14,000 cup

7mm Mauser 51,000

.38-55 Win 30,000 cup

7mm Rem Mag 61,000


.416 Rem Mag 65,000

7mm Weatherby Mag 65,000


.444 Marlin 44,000 cup

7mm-08 61,000


.45-70 Government 28,000

7-30 Waters 45,000

.458 Win Mag 53,000 cup

7.62x39 45,000

.470 NE 35,000 cup

.30 Carbine 40,000 .
. .
.30-40 Krag 40,000 cup


Sure wouldn't disagree for 2,000 PSI....good post

308 is more economical. Use less powder, prit-near same velocity

Lets see now, there are 7000 grains in a pound of powder. A can of most powders, can probably be bought for lets say $25.00 on the high side. Now if we divide the number of grains into the price we come up with .0036 per grain. If the 06 case uses 10 grains more, that equals 3.6 cents per round. Quite a savings.

Jerry

I love the 30/06 and any 30-caliber hunting rifle for deer or bear will be in this caliber.

However, .308 brass is easier to come-by and cheaper (military) and it uses less powder. Supposedly the shorter case is a bit inherently more accurate. The action is also shorter and weighs less.

".30-06 vs .308" Few hunters - or game - will ever see any difference.

You don;t need any more opinions but I'll reinforce some facts. For game up to mule deer it won't matter. Larger game can use the extra cubic inches in the -06.

Lets see further: No problem with surplus brass in the 30-06, CMP still sells loaded Lake City Mil Surp. Also, at the local range, you can get all the commercial brass you want, for free. All you have to do is pick it up. Short action, to ME this is of no particular advantage. How many of you guys whom wish to argue for the 308, shoot some kind of Wiz Bang Magnum, on a Standard or Magnum Action. As to accuracy, for this discussion there is NO difference, even at the bench, the difference, as I said before is measured in .001", NOT inches.

Still the 06 handels heavier bullets with significant ballistic improvement, and it will spank the 308, with the 150's too!

Jerry

Remember children, you DO NOT tug on Superman's cape, talk bad about your momma, or low-rate the 30-06!

Beeman: That's a good idea, and don't you think it is time someone stood up for the 30-06? I guess it's my turn. I don't really give a frig, what anyone shoots, and all the cartridges are good. What I don't get, is the constant diatribe, that the 2" CASE WILL DO ANYTHING THAT THE 2.5" CASE WILL DO. We used to say in the engine building business, you want power, you need cubic inches, same with cartridges.


Just my hot button for the week. LOL!

Jerry

Well Jerry, as has been said a whole bunch of times: the 30-06 is the cartridge against which all others are compared. To feel the need to make the comparison is flattering in itself. Now matter how misguided.

IMHO, it's unAmerican to not have a30-06, even if you don't hunt with it that often.

quote:

IMHO, it's unAmerican to not have a30-06, even if you don't hunt with it that often.

Beeman: Truer words have not been spoken. Like you I don't always grab the 06 to hunt with, and it'll sure put an elk down easily.

Jerry

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Eden:

quote:

IMHO, it's unAmerican to not have a30-06, even if you don't hunt with it that often.

Beeman: Truer words have not been spoken. Like you I don't always grab the 06 to hunt with, and it'll sure put an elk down easily.

Jerry

Well I guess this is the parting of the way. My last 06 was given away about 4 years ago. Felt it was more than was needed in the lower 48. My thoughts are that had it not been for Gen. Mac Arthur demanding the Garand use the 06 we would have had a more practical all American cartridge today. roger

I knew there was a reason besides giving Harry Truman bad time, that I like General Douglas Mac Arthur. A real American Patriot, and a very smart man!!

Jerry