I just finished two hours with the new Nosler Reloading Guide #5. My first impression is that I�m glad I also have #4. Here�s my synopsis of what�s new and what�s not (concentrating on my favorite calibers of course):

What�s new?
A lot. 260 Rem, 6.5X284, 270 WSM, 7MM SAUM, 300 SAUM, 300 WSM, 300 Dakota, 300 RUM, 330 Dakota, 338 RUM, 338-378 WBY, 9.3X62, 9.3X74R, 9.3X64, 375 RUM, 416 Rigby, 416 Rem, 450 Marlin, 45/70.
Of these, I�d say the Dakotas have a problem because they offer little or no velocity gains over the Winchester Standard Magnums and RUM�s, STW�s and the like offer much better numbers for the guy who wants something different.
The SAUM�s I think will get squeezed out by the WSM�s, but we�ll see.
The RUM�s offer impressive numbers in every category. Overkill will like the tables.
I think a number of people will like the 6.5X284 data.
A number of people here will like all the 9.3 data. I was impressed by the 9.3X64 numbers and it looks like it would fit in a standard length action.

What�s out?
218 Bee, 221 Fireball, 222 Rem Mag, 225 Win, 30-40 Krag, 358 Norma Mag.
Of these, deleting the rifle data for the Fireball is the biggest mistake if Remington really is bringing back the Fireball in the 700 Classic.

What�s missing?
I thought the 224/6MM (AKA 224 TTH) might make the cut given the push it seems to be getting. Apparently Nosler feels about it the same way I do. The Lazzeronis didn�t make the cut. No real surprise here though.
Some of the �old timers� doing the intro�s have been replaced with guys I�ve never heard of.

What�s surprising?
Very little. Much of the data is straight from the last manual.
The only real surprise I saw was in the data was for the 270 Win. For 130 gr bullets, the old H4831 max load of 56.5 gr = 3094 FPS was replaced with 59.0 gr of H4831SC = 3124 FPS. For 140 gr bullets, 58.0 gr of H4831SC = 3000 FPS.
There was new 270 data with W760. For 130 gr bullets, 54.0 gr of W760 = 3158. For 140 gr bullets, 53.0 gr of W760 = 3018. These are the highest velocities shown in the 270 data.
The Fail Safe and Partition Gold bullets are lumped in with Ballistic Tips and Partitions of similar weights, though in my rifles the FS and PG bullets develop higher pressures with a given powder charge. The book does note, �Always begin with starting loads when using Partition Gold or Fail Safe Products.�
The biggest surprise was that Craig Boddington didn�t use the Gen. title in his into for the 416 Rigby and he said in print he preferred the Rigby to the Weatherby.

What�s disappointing?
Very little new data for my favorite cartridges. I was really hoping for more Hodgdon and Reloader data.
The �Comments from the Lab� section is now �Technical Information� and has been greatly abbreviated in most instances. A lot of the powder recommendations have been deleted.
The ballistics tables in the rear are much less comprehensive.

What�s really good?
The book is dedicated to ��the memory of our passing friends�. And includes photos of eight guys who really did a lot for our sport.
It�s a lot of information for $20, whether you reload or not.

The best picture in the book is at the top of page 23. It should have been put on the cover.

What, no .404 data? Ray will never use Noslers bullets again for protest, eventually ...

I think the ballistic tables should be omitted. They were necessary a while ago, but with free ballistics software and cheap Lee program? Does anybody know if Lee still updates their program? I like it and use it, but dont tell those computer freaks: its DOS based!! ( And still works ).

Have fun! Hermann

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ForrestB - I agree that the Dakota loading data is very anemic. I am not sure the added awareness of the Dakota cartridges was worth the poor performance numbers Nosler posted. I am sure Don Allen is not pleased.

My personal experience with the 330 Dakota is I am achieving upwards of 150fps better than their 200gr numbers and I am almost 180fps better than their 250gr numbers. In addition, I am using a 24 inch barrel verses their 26 inch test barrel. Based upon the published data from Dakota, I would say the same for the Nosler 300 Dakota data. In addition, I also found the 6.5mm-284 numbers on the conservative side as well.

You can chalk all this up to - lawyers get the last look before publishing. Nosler is only going to publish very safe loads for ALL gun types. Since Dakota is a new cartridge for them, I am sure they are going to go slowly at first. However, anyone interested in the Dakota line should consult Dakota for safe loading data.

[This message has been edited by Zero Drift (edited 05-15-2002).]

Anymore VV data?

Yes there is limited VihtaVuori load data.

ZD, Given your experiences and the tables published by Dakota, I'm certain Don Allen is none too happy. I was quite surprised by the weak numbers shown for the Dakota cartridges. How do your powder charges compare to the Nosler Manual?

Nosler is lower on charge weights by 8% to 10% on published Dakota data. On a few of my personal loads they are even lower.

Any way you can post (or e-mail me) the 180gr 300 RUM DATA please?
I have been trying to get one for the longest time. No dice!

Iraklion@msn.com

------------------
"Hope for the best.....Expect the worst!"

POP

Loads According To Nosler

180gr Remington Ultra Mag

IMR 4350.........82.0gr........3187fps....81%.....Max Load
IMR 4350.........80.0gr........3125fps....79%
IMR 4350.........78.0gr........3053fps....77%
.
RL22..............87.0gr........3220fps....86%.....Max Load
RL22..............85.0gr........3146fps....84%
RL22..............83.0gr........3077fps....82%
.
H4831SC.........88.0gr........3205fps....87%.....Max Load
H4831SC.........86.0gr........3157fps....85%
H4831SC.........84.0gr........3089fps....83%
.
AA3100..........88.0gr........3206fps....87%.....Max Load
AA3100..........86.0gr........3112fps....85%
AA3100..........84.0gr........3057fps....83%
.
IMR 7828.........89.0gr........3229fps....88%.....Max Load
IMR 7828.........87.0gr........3137fps....86%
IMR 7828.........85.0gr........3093ps....84%
.
H1000............96.0gr........3225fps....95%.....Max Load
H1000............94.0gr........3160fps....93%
H1000............92.0gr........3089fps....91%
.

IMR4350 was the most accurate powder tested. All data is directly from Nosler, Mr. Drift makes no claims these loads are safe. Always begin with starting loads and if you blow yourself up, please sue the gun manufacturer and not me. I had nothing to do with this.

I thought it nice that George Hoffman was given his just dues (by a Remingtion Rep. no less!) on his contributions to the developement of the .416 Rem. Mag.

What is the max load for the 416 Remington Magnum & the 400 gr. Partition. Reloader 15 powder.

Tod,
Don't have my manual here at work. Will check tonight and let you know!

Zero Drift,
thank you from me too for your effort re the 180gr loading data.Could you- would you - do the same for the 165 gr partitions in 300RUM ?

thanks,appreciated
sheephunter

416 Rem Mag 400 Gr Partition (26" bbl)

RL15....81.0.....2503fps
RL15....79.0.....2453fps
RL15....77.0.....2404fps

Most Accurate Powder was IMR 4064
4064....77.5.....2438fps
4064....75.5.....2378fps
4064....73.5.....2332fps

The credit given Hoffman for the 416 was indeed nice and well deserved.

SH - here ya go...

Loads According To Nosler

165gr/168gr 300 Remington Ultra Mag

IMR 4350.........84.0gr........3317 fps....80%.....Max Load
IMR 4350.........82.0gr........3254 fps....78%
IMR 4350.........80.0gr........3156 fps....76%
.
H4831SC.........90.0gr........3328 fps....86%.....Max Load
H4831SC.........88.0gr........3275 fps....84%
H4831SC.........86.0gr........3209 fps....82%
.
IMR 7828.........90.0gr........3340 fps....86%.....Max Load
IMR 7828.........88.0gr........3256 fps....84%
IMR 7828.........86.0gr........3170 fps....82%
.
AA3100..........90.0gr........3316 fps....86%.....Max Load
AA3100..........88.0gr........3262 fps....84%
AA3100..........86.0gr........3173 fps....82%
.
RL22..............90.0gr........3368 fps....86%.....Max Load
RL22..............88.0gr........3312 fps....84%
RL22..............86.0gr........3249 fps....82%
.
H1000............98.0gr........3335 fps....94%.....Max Load
H1000............96.0gr........3270 fps....92%
H1000............94.0gr........3198 fps....90%
.

H1000 was the most accurate powder tested. All data is directly from Nosler 5th Edition, page 380. Mr. Drift makes no claims these loads are safe. Always begin with starting loads and if you blow yourself up, please sue the gun manufacturer and not me. I had nothing to do with this.

Note - because of the longer bearing surfaces associated with the Nosler Partition Gold and Nosler Fail Safe, ALWAYS begin with starting loads. Pressures can build quickly and unexpectedly with these longer bullets.

After all these years and now even marketing hype with rifle powder getting names like "Varget" and Lil Gun" and whatever it's interesting that the standard imr type stick powders still perform as well as anything!

I was looking at the .300 WSM data for the 180 gr and noticed that imr 4831 had the highest velocity!

Back in the 50's I got a 50lb keg of Ball C and some of that dirty junk is still around here. At least it was cheap then. On the other hand I have half a keg left of surplus 4831 and I wish I had a lot more of that outstanding powder.

Zero Drift,
Thank you indeed.After much ruminations I think I will move to Nosler Partitions in my new 300RUM.Initially thought the Barnes XLC series might be best,but my last year result show a clean thrushot without much expansion at 260y from a 30/06,I think the NP will do better for the higher energy 300RUM.The Barnes will stay together,but probably only pencilhole thru
sheephunter

Thanx for all input !~

SH - A final thought - You might wish to also consider the non-coated Nosler Partition Gold. I shoot both a 7mm Dakota and a 330 Dakota. The additional velocity can pose a problem for the standard Partition. This is further compounded by the additional velocities possible with the RUM. From my experience in the field, the Gold is just as accurate as the standard Partition, however, it out penetrates at high terminal velocities.

If you are shooting long range, consider that you will lose quite a few fps and then the standard Partition comes back into play.

Proprietary cartridges like Weatherby and Dakota are typically not standardized to SAAMI pressure specifications. A few Weatherbys have crossed over and I don't know if Don ALlen got his whole line standardized or not, but the Nosler conservatism may be fueled by some legal ramifications if they had to assume - on their own authority - what the safe maximum operating pressure would be.

Forrest,

I know you must have something better to do than post load tables, but if you don't mind I am curious as to what numbers the 9.3x64 is credited with.

Thanks
DOC

The 9.3x64 "Brenneke" is shown in the 250 grain bullet category with RL 15 being the most accurate powder, and a max charge of this is shown as 67.0 grains. Velocity from the 25.5" Lothar Walther barrel (good idea Nosler, everyone uses one of those...) is 2802 fps. The accuracy load is shown to be 63.0 grains of RL 15, @ 2640 fps...

The 286 grain bullet's favorite powder in the 9.3x64 is reported to be RL 15 once again, this time with a max charge of 66.0 grains for 2601 fps. The accuracy load is 64.0 grains, @ 2526 fps.

green 788

I just got my copy of the #5, and was surprised to find that it didn't list the trim-to-length for the .375 H&H.

I thought all manuals listed this next to the maximum case length.

?

Rick.

Rick,
Accepted Rule of thumb. Knock 10 thousands off the maximum case lenth.

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

I don't want to get too far off the topic, When I run a load thru Quickload they show you what happens to the pressure of your max load with a +10%/-10% burnrate variation for a given powder. A load of 64,000PSI can jump to 70,00PSI. I've never seen the acceptable limits for burnrate variation from lot to lot published, could 10% be realistic? Just wondering if this is why Nosler is using the reduced loads (CYA time). Zero Drift, have you shot the Partition Gold's at long range and compaired the drop rates to the standard Partitions? I'm working with the Gold's in a .338 Ultramag.

AJ - Not sure how you define "long range" however, I have shot both my 7mm and .330 Dakota at 300 yards on target. While I have not performed a comprehensive comparative loading between the standard Partition and the Partition Gold, this is what I have found...

Based upon the published BC for the Golds, I am seeing a flatter ballistics curve than expected. Maybe by a as much a few inches at 300 yards. I always shoot across my Oehler at the range so I am confident of my velocities. However, when I plug in exact environmental conditions and velocities, I seem to be shooting a little flatter than calculated. What I do not understand is - When comparing the same weight bullet, the Gold is a longer bullet than the standard Partition. You would think that the longer bullet would produce a better BC, however, Nosler lists the BC and SD for the Partition and Gold as the same. (????)

I have not been bothered enough to take another velocity reading at the target in order to calculate true BC, however, I would suspect the Golds perform a little better than the published numbers. In any event, the Golds certainly are noticeably tougher bullet than the standard Partition. On recovered bullets, (only a few) I still lose the front of the partition, however, the retained weight is considerably higher. At hyper velocities, this is not a bad thing.

Zero Drift- I've ran a comparison of the standard Partitions VS the Partition Golds thru the Infinity Program, even though they show both bullets with the same B.C., The "Golds" have more retained energy & velocity out past 800 yards. The Golds have 25" less drop and 700ftlbs more energy, starting both bullets at the same velocity (.338-250g @3000fps). I haven't had a chance to compare them at 300 yards. I plan on using the Golds for elk hunting this season.

AJ - This would lead me to believe there is a measurable difference in BC between the two bullets. Why would Nosler not publish this?

There are some considerations that should be weighed when shooting a longer bullet, however, in the RUM and Dakota case capacity is not an issue. If the Gold does exhibit this much difference at 800 yards, it certainly becomes the bullet of choice for LR hunting.

More discovery is necessary...