who has used the competition type of bullet seaters? do they help w/concentricity compared to a regular seater, and if so by appx. how much. i am getting as much as .008-.009 bullet runout w/ two different sets of dies (redding and rcbs) the case runout is .002 or less.
some loads have as little as .0015 bullet runout and i am in the middle of proving to myself that this may be my problem as to the inconsistancy of this particular rifle.

turning necks may be next. does anyone have a suggestion on a good neck turning tool? i have a redding 1400 case trimmer for what that's worth.

b h

Yopu might try a different brand of neck sizing die. I was having trouble with my rcbs 223 die and I changed to a forrester die and most all my troubles went away. They tell me that to get all the runout out you need to also use a straight line seater such as wilson or something like that. But before I started turning necks I would check wall thickness of my cases.
Larry

b h,

It is not uncommon for the seater to introduce runout. People mostly focus on the sizing operation (normally with use of expander) as the cause of runout, but as you have experienced, the seating operation can introduce the problem as well.

First off, when your seating operation introduces less than .002" runout, then you can probably be happy with that part of your reloading. Make sure you chamfer your case necks inside before seating the bullet.

Secondly, try taking your seater and loosen the seating stem. Then re-tighten it, while you have a case with a bullet in your press, making contact with the seating stem at the correct seating depth. (Was that understandable?). The idea is to try to position your seating stem in a way, which will minimize the runout produced - thus the case/bullet contact to try to center the seating stem. Also don't forget, most regular seating dies allow you some leeway with respect to the position of the die body itself. That means one more option to find a benign position of die body and seating stem providing you with the right seating depth - and less runout...

If that does not work for you, you can consider trying another die. I have personally had good luck with both Forster and Redding Competition type seaters. The Forster is considerably cheaper (in particular the model without the micrometer adjustment option), yet it is still a very good die.

Alternatively, you could consider an in-line die from manfacturers such as Wilson. Sadly, these are not used with a regular "screw-in" press, so you'd need to invest in an arbor press as well...

If you consider a new die, naturally you have to find a manufacturer producing the seating die in your particular caliber. Score one for "boring, standard" cartridges, which are easy to get dies for... Custom made dies are available, but it starts getting a bit pricey. Neil Jones would be one source of such dies, I believe (www.neiljones.com/html/threaded_dies.html).

All this said, if you are having a problem with a particular (factory) rifle, runout is not normally the biggest contributor to over sized groups. Still, I know the feeling. A rifle won't group, and you are (sensibly) trying to reduce options to locate the gremlin. Sensible approach, just don't get disappointed if you manage to significantly reduce your runout but not your group size.

What caliber are you having the problem with, and how do you measure your runout??

- mike

If refering to compatition dies you mean streight line dies [wilson type] I use that type on all my ctgs. Not necessarily Wilson, I make up some of my own from sections of barrel that I have cut off. Use your consentricity guage after each step, starting with a freshly fired case, after sizing, and after seating to find out just where the error is being introduced to the brass. The only real problem that needs a major fix is if your brass is coming out of the gun already goofed up. This would naturally mean that your chamber is the culprit, and there have been cases of this although rare. Do you neck size or f/l resize? If at all possible, I think one good way to neck size is with a die made from a Newlon blank and the reamer that cut the chamber. If you are asking if a streight line die is more accurate in seating a bullet, I think in general that they are, although it is not impossible to get a bad wilson die just as it is not impossible to get a bad die that I make myself. You must find, first off, just where the error is introduced into the cases, and work from there. Let us know how you are making out and maybe one of up can be of more help. Good Luck.
I personally do not think that any of the case trimming tools are worth a damn in turning necks. K&M makes a very nice little tool that is readily adjustable accuratly, I may have one to send you if you decide that is the road to go. I am not sure as I am in Fla. for the winter and do not know off hand just what is in the tool box that I brought with me. I have used the K&M and it is a very good tool, the reason that I am not using it now is that I made up an adapter for a Sinclair that holds a mic. head and makes it easy to adjust. This has always been a bitch with the Sinclair tools. Other than that they cut very cleanly and are big enough to be comfortably to use. Turning necks will not help with your run out problem at all, and if you do turn just take as little as possible off to clean up the necks as all the brass removed just makes more room in the chamber for the case neck to expand, and harden and split that much sooner.

Competition dies have the advantage that bullets start out sxtraight before being pressed into the neck.

Conventional dies are a crapshoot. Some seat straight, some don't.

If your brass has .002" runout at the neck, then a competition seater should do no worse than .005" runout. Typically you'll get .003"

I've found that concentricity is better if I just start the bullet into the neck then back off a bit and rotate the case 180 degrees then finish the seating operation.
I like to keep it less than .005", but I've fired rounds with up to .008" runout and they fell into the group with all the others.

I will preface by saying I'm not an expert, but pay attention to runout and try and keep big game loads under .005. I have comp. seating dies for a few cals and have not really noticed any improvement in reducing runout compared to regular seating dies. I have seen some seating dies that did not like some types of bullets. For example, my .300 WSM RCBS bullet seating die induces a lot of runout with 180 Nosler Accubonds, but with 180 Partitions, none at all. Might be fixed with a different stem, but haven't tried it. A couple of other items is make sure you get a nice even inside chamfer. I have heard this could induce runout. Also, you might want to try seating your bullets half way, then rotating the case in the shell holder 180 degress and finish seating.

Regards,

Lou

I'd be glad to post how to eliminate it in the sizing of the brass with an idea that worked great for me.

BUT if the problem is is the seating...Like Lou270 said be sure you have a good chamfer that is square to the case mouth.

AND I have also found that too much neck tension can be a BIG PROBLEM when seating
bullets....I have found that a lyman m die can be a big help in that it seems to leave the case mouth just a bit more open with less seating tension than many of my dies.

Most competition seaters work very well. If you are still getting too much run out get match quality brass or a Bersen Device or both. You should then be able to keep run out of the finished round to 0.002 and usually less. Another alternative is a set of custom dies made to your chamber. What caliber and type of rifle are you working with?

the rifle is a kimber 7/08. i,m using norma brass but some of it has as little as .0015 case runout and some of it has as much as .004

b h

I prefer the Vickerman type seating dies.

The only one I know of that's on the market at the moment are the RCBS "Competetion Benchrest" and "Gold Medal Benchrest" seating dies.

the Vickerman type die is distinctive not in that it has a large sliding alignment sleeve that feature is common to most "benchrest type" dies
NOR does it necissarily have a Micrometer seating stem.

What is special is that the bullet is set in from the SIDE of the die through a "window"
in the die body. This isn't necissary, but it's nice to SEE what is going on.

AllanD