cartridge is a 6.5x57R and gun is a break open single shot. does not have the camming force, upon closing, of a bolt action.
full length resized cases chamber perfectly.
once bullet is seated, a random number of cartridges will not chamber. it may be 2 out of 10, but sometimes 3 out of 5, following no pattern.
using my rcbs concentricity case gauge y noticed that the body of the cases is always perfectly concentric anywhere you measure them, up to the shoulder.
measuring them on the neck is different. cartridges that chamber have a maximum runout of .003 inches while those that do not chamber have a runout of .011 in the neck and .015 in the bullet shank.
while trying to close the rifle with one of these, leaves a mark, a scratch in the bullet's shank.
I have tried all different setups with the seating die and seater with no success.
any ideas, please?
montero

Dear Montero you must add that your rifle it's a Blaser , and you must remember when I told you from a friend 6 x 62 R Fr�res , with exactely the same problem , the chamber it's not concentric with the bore and the bullet struck the land , and you can't believe me ... , try to smoke the bullet of a reloaded cartridge then you'll find the spot where they struck the lands , turn the cartridges 180 degrees and if have same minor excentric fault , it will chamber freely , if the cartridge it's perfectly it hit the lands all the time , I can give the tel number of Mikel the 6 x 62 R owner and ask about the problem , he bought four boxes of ammo and check load it in the rifle to select two boxes that fit and return two .

Saludos

Daniel

[ 08-21-2002, 12:02: Message edited by: Daniel M ]

I once read that reloading is illegal in Spain. It just goes to show, don't believe every thing you read.

Goneballistic , please don't tell the Guardia Civil we reload ....
Daniel

Daniel,
Actually, the rifle does not belong to me. It is a good friend of mine that has the problem.
I have had Blaser single shots in 5.6x50R (2), 6x62R Fr�res and 6.5x65R with no problems whatsoever.
I expect no problems when my new 6.5x57R arrives...hopefully.
All the Blaser single shots I have shot have all been extremely accurate, and I would not expect that sort of accuracy from twisted, eggshaped, eccentric chambers.
Measuring a fireformed case, anywhere along the case boody, shoulder or neck, I get runout readings of less than .0025 inches, which is not too bad. That seems to indicate that the problem is not with the chamber.
I do not need to smoke the bullet in a loaded cartridge to see where it touches because it is quite obvious even without smoking. The bullet appears scratched. But it is not scratched by the lands, given the fact that the lands start further forward to the location of the scratch.
I have always found Blaser's (either the k77 or the k95 as I have never worked with any of the Ikea type r93) chambers to be tight. And I feel that my friend would have never had this problem if his rifle had the typical sloopy chamber.
On the other hand, if the problem were with the chamber it should happen with all cartridges. Or better to say it should never happen, as full length sizing (turning the case and lowering the press handle three times in three different positions before rising the press handle) in a concentric die would correct the eggshaped fireformed case.
In my opinion the problem is in the RCBS seater die, as problems appear only after the bullet is seated.
By whatever reason the bullet is not being seated straight.
I do not doubt of your friends problem with his 6x62R but maybe the problem was with the ammo (MEN ?).
Saludos,
montero

ps: gonebalistic, you read right. even though the authorities turned a blind eye on reloading, it was forbidden until a few years ago. I remember years ago, while buying bullets during a vacation in the US, I was asked the typical where-do-you- come from? When I told the clerk I came from Spain and that reloading was forbidden in my country he said something like.. ahh! sorry I did not know Spain was behind the Iron Courtain...

Montero,
it is a well known problem by my friends who have Blaser Kipplauf.
During the shooting process a little amount of material, brass, move from shoulder to the base of the neck forming a ring of brass. Probably is the pressure wave that work on shoulder. When you full lenght and put the bullet this ring is pulled out alterating the neck-shoulder conjunction point dimensions. Blaser is highly sensible to this and do not camerate the cartridge.
Two solution: first one, adopted by the italian importer of Blaser rifles, turn a little the rifle in the neck area widening the internal diameter; I don't like it
second: work on cases with a mill point taking away the brass ring every time that you reload.
All my friends used this solution and solved them problems.

Hope that it help you.
bye

Steven,

I am afraid I am not sure what a mill point is...

Anyway, do you think it could be done inside reaming the neck with a custom fit reamer? The problem I see with this neck reaming is that the neck walls are not parallel. The neck is slightly conical, that meaning that to eat up the proper amount of material at the junction of the neck and the shoulder, I would be taking away too much of the neck mouth.

Thank you for your comments,

Montero

Sounds like you need a better seating die. Your first post states that loaded rounds with little bullet runout chamber well and those with much runout don't. The good news is that your rifle appears to have a very straight chamber; the bad news is that it won't accept sloppy ammo. My advice would be to find a "benchrest" seating die, but at the moment I can't think of anyone that makes one for 6,5x57.

Can you measure the neck diameter of a round after you've seated a bullet...you may have some pieces of brass with overly thick necks.

Montero,

If you rotate the loaded round 90 degrees and re-chamber it, does the bullet get scratched again?

If so, there may be a small burr making contact with the bullet on those rounds with the excessive runout.

I would turn the necks, not inside ream; turning necks guarantees neck concentricity (assuming the proper mandrel was used to size the inside of the case neck).

George

The problem may be caused by the expander button pulling more material from one side of a neck than the other. This could be caused by not enough lube in each case neck or dies that work the cases too much.

Test reloads made from new unfired brass in your concentricity gage but don't size them at all. Just seat the bullets. Also try loads that are made with no expander button (or use one from a die with a smaller bore).

Lube in the neck that has a EP additive and even a solid friction modifier (EP grease with Moly) would result in the least drag. You must clean this out afterwards.

Montero,
well is my informatic English/Italian dictionary that answered mill point, but a cilindrical inside neck reamer is the same thing.
take a look on Sinclair International site http://www.sinclairintl.com/ and look for a WRx item, on the fast search option.
If you look in details page, the photo is correct the description isn't.
Anyway that can be cosidered a mill point or tool.
but ?conical? Make it cylindrical.
A friend of mine builted a expansion olive with a cutting edge to eliminate the burr at the base of the neck during the final phase of sizing.
You have described exactly the same problem that my friends have. It is more evident in high velocity cartridges, 6 x 62 R Fr�res for example. It is more evident in sweet brass cases like RWS, other calibers of course. We had the most evident example with a wildcat, the .277GS based on 8x68S RWS cases. This cartridge develop a pressure superior of 20/30% vs 7REM Magnum, and with 130 grains bullets the max vel is over 3650fps.
At the first load it was impossible to have concentricity between bullet and case, and the problem have been solved, again, eliminating the burr at the base of the neck.
bye

DB Bill,
Neck thickness is ok.

GeorgeS,
When rotating the cartridge, the bullet is always scratched on the same place. That is probably because the chamber is perfectly concentric and the cartridge is not. Therefore it is the bullet that touches the throat, and not the throat that touches the bullet.
Neck thickness is ok that is why I do not outside turn them. The ring which Steve talks about is an inner ring formed at the junction of the neck with the shoulder. Being on the inside the only way to remove it is internal reaming of the neck.

Don Martin29,
Handloads with new unfired cases work perfectly. You may be right about the expander button pulling more material from one side of a neck than the other. I will polish it and put more lube on the inside of the neck.
Anyway, as it is now, resized cases chamber without problem until a bullet is seated. If I do not pass the expander button through them, won't their necks be too tight to accept the new bullet?
I am afraid I don't know what an EP aditive is...

Steve,
What is conical is the neck of the case. Diameter at the mouth is smaller than diameter at the junction with the shoulder. They are made like this for a better obturation of the gases. If I introduce through the mouth a reamer with enough diameter as to ream the ring it will ream too much of the neck while passing through the neck mouth.

Than you very much to all for your cooperation.
I'll keep you informed.

Montero

What you seem to be describing, Steve Malinverni, is what we call the "Dreaded Doughut", which is usually encountered when necking down brass to a smaller caliber than that of the parent case. If this is the problem then a reamer would be the solution.

Don Martin also has a probable cause in mind. Excessive expander ball drag will cause rounds not to chamber correctly. Pulls the shoulder forward. Uneven expander drag can cause runout.

montero,
What brand of dies are being used? Was the expander polished before using? Are the insides of the case necks cleaned before sizing? Are they lubed and what with?

Have you thought about just seating the bullet a little deeper?

goneballistic,
dies are RCBS.
the expander has not been polished but it will.
necks are cleaned before resizing and lubed with RCBS lube.

GeorgeS
All cases are concentric after firing and all casea are still concentric and will chamber easily after resizing. Some will not be concentric after the bullet is seated and will not chamber. Neck thicknes is constant all around the neck. Eccentricity is smaller at the base of the neck, than at the forward part of the neck, which is smaller than at the bullet's shank. This means that the bullet's longitudinal axis is not pointing 0� forward, but slightly sideways and that is why the further foeward you move, the larger eccentricity you get.

ricciardelli,
No I have not tried that, but I will.

Thank you, gentlemen, for your advice.
I will keep you tuned.

Montero

Montero, I'd be inclined to accuse your seating die. Fired cases concentric, sized cases also and trouble starts after seating... I'd trust the rifle. Small tolerances in chamber and in general + everything square and solid make for accurate rifles. If possible, I'd borrow another seater or order a Redding.