The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Reloading Neck Sizing vs. FLRing...........Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| Neck Sizing vs. FLRing........... | Login/Join |
one of us |
The Post on "Aways and Never" got me to thinking about the "Tried and True" and "Set in Stone" methods that you hear many reloaders hashout every now and then. I was wondering how many of you have had rifles that just did not follow these "rules." IE I have two rifles that shoot much better groups if I FLR the whole case vs Neck size the cases. I mean a very noticeable difference in group size (ie .3s-.4s to .7s+) and this totaly defys the old rule of "Neck sized brass is more accurate and Consistent." And on the other hand, I have some rifles that shoot the same regardless of how the brass is sized. I've never been able to prove that neck sizing was any more accurate than FLRing or PFLRing which, just baffles some. How many of you have found one to be considerably better than another and which? I'm not worried about brass life, I only like to fire a case 3 or 4 times anyway, brass is cheap. Reloader | ||
|
| one of us |
I'm not worried about brass life, I only like to fire a case 3 or 4 times anyway, brass is cheap _______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ After 4 firings do you consider that brass is almost "gone"less accurate,group will open. ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ I prefer partial sizing without the shoulder "worked",one rifle has no accuracy using neck sizing;the other one I didnt try it yet,but if I decide using NS it will be using body die with the Lee collet die... | |||
|
| one of us |
Well, The most accurate rifles I own are Magnums and even when loaded at mid level charges I get that bright ring above the belt after 3-4 firings w/ the cheap Win and Rem brass. W/ standards, maybe a few more shots but, I just don't like the risk. I prefer to load all hunting ammo w/ new or once fired brass. Brass is pretty cheap especially, if you buy the once fired Factory stuff then weight sort and your ready to go. I've had great luck w/ that Body die followed by the collet die method as well, it produces some pretty darn straight ammo. Reloader | |||
|
| one of us |
if you are seeing casehead seperation signs at 4 firings, you are OVERWORKING your brass. I can even get 6 firings on my 300RUM match barrel before the primer pockets are toasted. I do not get casehead seperation signs. The brass is being sized down too small and the expansion is wearing out the case. Try PFL sizing if you don't want to neck size the cases. Difficulty is inevitable Misery is optional | |||
|
| one of us |
JustC, Don't thinking I'm working it too hard. It's mainly 300 Win Mag Brass that I'm only getting the 3-4 firings from when pushing the 190 MKs at 2900 w/ 73 Grns of H4831 and I am only PFLRing as some of you define it, I'm just bumping the shoulder back enough to where they'll chamber. It's much more accurate than neck sizing in that rifle and as long as it keeps on turning out sub .25" groups at 100, I aint changing a dang thing! Brass is cheap..... I have a 7RM that pretty much does the same. My WSM and SAUM brass last pretty long even if I FLR. Maybe it's a belt thing.... Reloader | |||
|
One of Us |
Hey Reloader I'm on shaky ground here, but I think that ring above the belt is called the pressure ring and shows up pretty much all the time in any caliber with light or heavy loads and is not idicative of case separation. The way to tell if a problem is developing is to bend a paperclip or use something that you can insert inside the case and feel for a groove developing on the inside at the pressure ring. Regarding new cases, a lot of reloaders don't realize that there is a substantial amount of headspace with most guns with new cases. I posted this on another forum
The Mato produced this group with new cases (the one on the right, 4 shots)  So, I really don't know which method is most accurate. Still deciding. It may be that the powder expanding the new or full length sized case centers the case and bullet or delays the bullet exodus in some way that improves accuracy. It may not. I can't comprehend how that could be more accurate than a case that is held tightly in place because it is the exact chamber size after only neck sizing. Perhaps most factory chambers are a little out of round and the fire formed brass would have to be inserted in the same position as previously fired to center the bullet. Jury is still out  ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
|
| one of us |
The 270 Sako and the 300 Mato have produced 1/4" size groups consistently ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Woods,how many reloads before the groups open ,are you using near hot load(2 grs below max...) | |||
|
| One of Us |
rej, that's really hard to determine. As a case goes through several loadings, there are a lot of other variables: different temperature, humidity, wind conditions, how well you are shooting on a certain day, etc. You would almost have to spend all day and travel back and forth to your reloading bench to load the same load in the same cases and keep track of how many loadings per case, cleaning your rifle in the same way every time. Get rid of all the other variables to see if accuracy decreased with the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th loadings. And see if accuracy got better when the case got hard to chamber and the shoulder had to be pushed back to PFLR. Good project, any volunteers? Personally, I don't think accuracy decreases with successive loadings of the same case and neck sizing. Example of the 4th loading with only neck sizing:  Another example of the same cases on the next reloading using PFLR:  Now, do I conclude that PFLR is less accurate than NS? No, the conditions were different. Seems like accuracy is 85% the rifle, 10% the bullet/powder, 4% the shooter and his expertise, and 1% everything else including case prep. Go Astros!! ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
|
| one of us |
reloader,..measure the case dia at the expansion ring after firing and compare that to the specs in the manual. I am wondering if the chamber is big. The PFL sizing you are doing should extend case life, and I have never loaded for any caliber that craps the cases out in 4 firings. Not to say that I havn't missed something here,..but I would look hard for the cause of that. Are your primers flat or bolt lift sticky at all? I have crapped out 6.5-06AI cases in 2 firings, but I was wayyyy over loaded. Difficulty is inevitable Misery is optional | |||
|
| one of us |
I agree, I reckon every time a "nice firm" case is PFLSed and or chambered it will show a "rub" ring. If one doubts the use of a wire feel tool, well then " as brass is cheap", one could cut one up and do a visual inspection. IF sized properly I don't see any danger of head seperation occuring. John L. | |||
|
| one of us |
Hey Reloader, I guess it is no surprise to anyone who frequents this Board that I prefer P-FLRing. The reason "why" is simple enough - it is "slightly" more accurate for me than NSing. Not much, but enough that I can prove it to myself anytime I want by running a "Blind Test". Simply P-FLR 15-18 cases and NS the same amount, load them up and then have a buddy hand them to you without telling you which ones you are getting. Shoot one bunch on a single Target and the other bunch on a different Target. Have the buddy mark a spotter Target for each shot, (which will hopefully be a ragged hole). If you are aware that you "flinch" a shot, call it and mark it so it doesn't mess up the combined group. If you don't have a buddy handy at the Range, have someone at home "mark" one Set of Loads without telling you which one they marked and have them write it on a piece of paper, stick it in an envelope and take it to the Range so you can see which is which after you shoot. The great thing about these methods is that anyone can run the Blind Tests for themselves, and use which ever method they prefer. They don't have to rely on ANYONE saying one method is better than the other and just follow along. If you have a FL Die Set, buying a NS Die to go with it isn't that much cost($9-$12) to do a bit of Testing on your own. | |||
|
| one of us |
Guys, this is simply a question to see how many of you have rifles that defy those old "Concrete" Laws that you've heard for years about reloading, it's not to tell me what I'm doing wrong. I know very well how to read pressure on cases by the markings, primers, expansion ring, loose primer pockets, stiff bolt, etc etc We aren't talking about that, you do it your way and I'll do it mine  , as long as these puppies keep tearing one ragged hole groups I AINT changing a dang thing. Brass is cheap so what if I can only use a cheap Rem or WIn case 4 times heck, I'd probably have chunked them by then anyway. I just feel better when I've got brass that's some what new, prepped, and weight sorted. Any way the last year I've been using alot of the once fired Factory cases at $10 a 100 w/ just as good results as new brass. 3 more firings at a value of about $0.03 each, like I said, Brass is cheap. If we could only get better deals on Powder .Just like Hotcore's always saying how his rifles love PFLRing much better than Neck sizing, Alot of the Bench rest guys would laugh at that but, it's true, his guns defy that old wives tale. I've found much the same w/ most of my rifles HC, they prefer the partially sized cases or FLRed cases to the neck sized stuff, matter of fact, a couple of them shoot quite bad w/ neck sized loads. Anyone else find the same in their rifles? Have a Good One Reloader | |||
|
| one of us |
Yeah, Woods, I'm aware of that and I think alot of folks get confused when we talk about the rings on cases. I'm talking about two rings if you will. The first ring by the head which even occurs on the very first firing but the expansion rings usually show up about a 1/16 or 1/8" in front of that. Steves Pages have pretty good examples of expansion rings. I've even seen standard carts get an expansion ring after a few rounds when They been FLRed due to over working the brass. In some rifles especially just hunting rifles, I FLR the hunting ammo per the "screw die in until it touches shell holder and then another 1/4 turn" method. It's hard on brass sure but, the fact is most of my hunting ammo when shots are fired in the field, I could care less what happens to the brass and most of the time it gets lost anyway. I also FLR on Pumps or Autos for ease of chambering reasons. Have a Good One Reloader | |||
|
one of us |
My one and only experiment with NS'ing (300WSM) was a total bust. Maybe I was doing something wrong, but accuracy was bad, runout was terrible, and chambering was difficult after 1 firing, near impossible after 2. That's why my NS die is now my 'nearly universal' 30 cal decapping/expanding die. At least it's getting some use! Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. | |||
|
| one of us |
Don't know about Hotcores necksizing methods, but the benchresters would have a much fancier system than mine. JL | |||
|
| one of us |
Hey Reloader, Forgot to mention, it has been a l-o-n-g time since I've done any actual FLRing on rifle cases. It might have been in the early `70s when I hunted with a bunch of Sand Crabs and MARINES in Eastern NC. We used "Pulled Down" 7.62NATO cartridges with Hornady Bullets in M14s for some hunting. And the same cases expanded to 358Wins for use in 6 M99 Savages, also with Hornady bullets. Since the cartridges had to fit multiple rifles in both 30cal and 35cal, we FLRed. Plenty of accuracy(1"-2" depending on the specific rifle) for shots inside 300yds on Black Bears, Deer and Hogs. Nothing like a rainy day to sit around pulling FMJs and dumping powder while hearing all the old Hunt Stories for no telling how many times. After the initial Firing, they got FLRed and the Swage "cut out" around the Primers. I believe we never fired them more than 3 times before making a new batch. --- By the way, someone came on the Board a good while back and mentioned "some" of the BenchRest guys are beginning to P-FLR their cases instead of NSing them. Makes sense to me. | |||
|
| one of us |
I chrono loads foe the .338 RUM,the manufacture loads 250 grs were above max velocity by 30 f/s.Using the reloads(95 grs H-4831SC(200grs Hornady) the velocity was 25 f/s above max velocity listed.The CHE manufactured cases(fireformed) is.5499" to .5503";the reloads.5493" to .5495";I am below the CHE manufacture fireformed case,but the velocity is higher than listed on manual,using the manufacture fireformed case,is it save method to get save velocity,when one should stop adding powder... | |||
|
| one of us |
"I've never been able to prove that neck sizing was any more accurate than FLRing or PFLRing which, just baffles some." It baffled me too, back in the mid 80's. Then I started partial sizing and my groups got smaller. Took a couple of years to figure out why neck sizing didn't work for hunting cartridges. John Barnesses (spelling?) has a good article explaining why over on 24 Hour Campfire. Casey | |||
|
| One of Us |
I prep the brass: 1) I penetrate the mouth of the case .1" with the expander ball. 2) I drag the brass mouth sideways across a file at a 10 degree angle while turning the brass until the burr is gone. 3) I chamfer the inside of the case mouth until half of the mouth edge is gone. How did I come up with such a ritual? By pulling bullets and looking at them with a microscope. I size the brass: 1) I take the expander ball out. 2) I lube the outside of the case with wax. 3) I partial neck size in the FL die or a FL type S die. I like to know the neck is getting aligned with the body. 4) I use a seating die that aligns the bullet with the shoulder, like a Forster or Wilson. If all I have is regular RCBS, I seat 1/3 depth, rotate 120 degrees, seat to 2/3 depth, rotate 120 degrees, and fully seat. How did I come up with such a ritual? With a concentricity gauge measuring the error at each step. | |||
|
| one of us |
It is beginning to get technical,it is interesting,but not quite communicating.. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I'm just trying to understand cause I like anything that can increase concentricity. ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
|
| One of Us |
| |||
|
one of us |
I think it would amaze most folks here how many BR guys are PFL sizing EVERY time. I would put the numbers around 50/50 for PFL vs. neck alone. Regardless, what's acceptable for competition is not always workable for field use. My take on all this is that it all comes down to the die vs. chamber relationship. Also, it seems to me that the "quality" of the die actually matters very little. Some examples I can site would be my 7mm-08 with it's custom Kreiger tube chambered to the minimum side works just ducky with a Forster FL die almost screwed all the way down. My .300 Win mag also chambered on the minimum side runs into aggravation when used with another Forster FL die. Backing this die out won't help, the die is just too tight for the chamber. Now I would definately rate Forster dies ahead of RCBS, but this particular .300 Win mag just loves a standard RCBS FL sizer backed out just a touch. I have a .280 Mato on the other hand that has been getting crooked ammo from a standard RCBS die. The .25 WSSM just loves it's RCBS standard sizer as does the 6br with it's Redding and the '06 with it's Hornady. Custom dies are sounding better and better. Gabe | |||
|
| one of us |
I shot more reloads and the CHE is nearly the "same" for manufacture rounds and the reloads.The reloads exceed listed velocity,I will back up 2grs,two problems:reloads dont last more than 4 fiings(accuracy not good) and the socket pocket is enlarged..The CHE method is not quite precise ;the chrono is far better... | |||
|
one of us |
I agree with alot of this expect I always throw the expander ball in the trash can and use and an expander mandrel instead. Granted by only "short stroking" the expander ball it is ok, but I just don't trust it. I only use FL "S" type dies so i control the neck and an in-line seater such as wilson or something custom if the caliber is not available. | |||
|
| One of Us |
If you throw the expander ball in the trash, do you then use the remaining die to size the case with a expander mandrel (what is that, is it like a Lee Collet mandrel) and do you put it in the die you discarded the expander ball from, or throw the rest in the trash too? I have used the Redding S type bushing die and is that the mandrel type you are talking about? The one Redding S type bushing die that I bought (they're not cheap) yielded .007 runout and I haven't tried anymore of them. Now I use Lee Collet Neck Sizers and Redding Body Dies and runout is always .002 or less on the neck. ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
|
| One of Us |
I asked proffesor Bradshaw just what was the difference functionally between a mandrel and the terrible expander ball in his 1993 post: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.guns/browse_frm/thre...94/56d2034fbecd85f1? He answered me, but I did not get it. Now I get it. | |||
|
| one of us |
No, you size the case with the FL size S die after using the expander mandrel to "straighten out" the neck on brand new brass. After you have done this on brand new brass, you will just use the Fl S die. | |||
|
| one of us |
Reloader, Here is a "set in stone" story. Two years ago I began working up a load for smallish plains game for my hunt in Namibia last year. I had decided to use the 85 Barnes X in my Colt\Sauer 25-06. Conventional wisdom states that once fired brass from my own gun will be more accurate than FL sized new virgin brass. Not in my rifle! I ended up taking 60 rounds of virgin WW brass loaded with AA MagPro powder. FL sized, trimmed and inside neck chamfered. It was slightly more accurate with the Barnes X bullets than with any other brand of brass, new or once-fired. Go figure??? This "goes against the grain" sort of thing has never happened to me in 34 years of handloading. I still cannot figure out why my gun preferred new brass over cases that had already been fire-formed in that chamber. The accuracy difference was 1\4" MOA or less. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Color me stupid, but could you provide a link to someone who sells expander mandrels or at least give us a brief description? I know what a FL S die is, I own one, but I don't think I own an expander mandrel unless you could call the mandrel inside a Lee Collet Die one. ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
|
| One of Us |
Bart Bobbit rec.guns source on google | |||
|
| One of Us |
Don't know if this is the same Bart B, but it sure sounds like it, and if it is he doesn't use the same definitions for sizing that are most common. He makes statements that are contradictory and incorrect, and I will take everything he says with a grain of powder http://www.reloadersnest.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2831 JMHO ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
|
| one of us |
I recently had the opportunity to read one of Bart B's posts on another Board. It appeared to me he had claimed one thing in the beginning of the thread and then something different later in the same thread as providing the best accuracy. "I believe" he also mentioned that Reloaders Headspace Belted Cases on the Belts - in all situations. For Dangerous Game country, that is indeed a fine idea. But, I sure don't do it that way where I hunt. --- I just noticed several things that Bart and I do differently and really see no rational or logical reason to change what I'm doing in his posts. If it works for him though, good for him | |||
|
| one of us |
Thank to the gentleman that said:check for enlarged primers and also for getting few reloads.Using the chrono the loads were too hot,backing up 2 grs ,accuracy came back.   | |||
|
| one of us |
Let common since be your guide... I full length resize all of my big bore dangerous game cases, reliability is first and foremost, I want them to feed and that sloppy fit is wanted.... On a deer rifle, I want a little less than a crush fit..I want it to go in easily... On a varmint rifle or bench rifle I want a light crush fit... On my 6x45 I have to trim necks and could get by without any resizing at all in a pinch, but I have a hand die for it..It is set up with 0 tolerence, no room for error here or it won't chamber... for a hunting rifle in general I would recommend full lenth resizeing and put emphasis on reliability not accuracy...I have resized and necksized for years, kept records and brass lasted about the same, so why worry about it. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Reloading Neck Sizing vs. FLRing...........
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia