Another newbie question here.
I used a Lee set-up mostly in 7mm rem mag.

Is there any reason, after the first fireforming of the shell, to use the full size die, or is the neck sizing die the only thing to use (its nice being able to skip the lube process with a collet die).
I would also think the full sizing die kinda defeats the purpose of fireforming...is this correct?

You'll find that neck sized only brass will become difficult to chamber after a few firings. Properly sizing a case in a full length sizer, ie providing .002" headspace clearance will not defeat the purpose of fire-forming, and it will assure trouble free chambering.

The problem is sloppy factory chambers that cause dies to do alot of sizing on each firing, but IMHO, neck sizing isn't the answer.

hi ruger,
i"m no expert, as i just started reloading recently myself, but if you"re re-using your rounds in the same rifle(not 2 rifles of the same calibre), then there is no advantage to full length resizing. in theory a fire formed case, neck sized for bullet seating, will perform better in the chamber it was formed in.
a friend of mine gave me a handful of .308 handloads to try last week, and they"d all been loaded from brass fired in his winchester coyote. i found that some of them would"nt even chamber(the bolt would"nt close) in my cz 550.
had these all been full length sized, then they would have been interchangeable, but i only load for one gun in any given calibre, and i don"t even own a set of full length dies!
unless i had a source for once fired brass in a calibre i shoot, i would"nt bother going for more than neck sizing.
that"s how i feel about it, and if someone more experienced wants to dissagree, then maybe i"ll learn something!
(incidentaly, i bought lee dies, and i found that they did"nt size the neck as much as i would have liked for a secure grip on the bullet, so i took out the de-primer pin/neck size assembly and polished a tiny bit (1 or 2 thou) of it in a drill chuck with wet and dry emery paper, and it now sizes a liitle tighter)
anyway, have fun and good shooting

there you go! the above reply by paul was posted while i was typing mine! i"ll keep my mouth shut in future!

quote:

Originally posted by brass thief:
there you go! the above reply by paul was posted while i was typing mine! i"ll keep my mouth shut in future!

Anyone is welcome to reply here.Hunting rifle with standard chamber,using NS or PFLS or FLS makes "no difference" concerning brass live and accuracy.The method you choose is up to you.Using a rifle with a chamber out of standard dimensions;(chamber cuts too large,loose sloppy etc..),those rifles are very difficult to reload,dies are made for rifles with standard dimensions,the choice of method will differ,may be NS will work better or FL ,PFLS.(too much resizing ).Trying bench rest dies competition(larger dimensions) may help or at last resort you will have to get your die customised,sending it back with some fireformed cases to the manufacturer...

When someone says fireformed cases, do they just mean cases that they have fired from their particular gun?

quote:

Originally posted by WesN:
When someone says fireformed cases, do they just mean cases that they have fired from their particular gun?

That means that they have been fired from their particular gun;no sign of high pressure,otherwise the case is useless ...

If you don't at least partial resize, the cases will begin to chamber with difficulty and give the false impression of a sticky bolt upon extraction. I like to re-size partially such that chambering is easy - then, if I get a sticky bolt, I've got excessive pressure issues and know it. When I hunt, I use completely resized cases - don't want chambering problems when HOGZILLA shows up!

I use a Lee collet die for some of my loads no complaints, if in doubt of wether you have to fl resize just take a neck sized case before doing anything else to it and check it the the rifle you are loading for if it fits no nned to fl resize. A few thins to keep in mind about fl sizing it reduces case capacity and works the brass reducing case life. If you are having trouble chambering a case in a chamber it was fired in that makes me want to ask a few questions was it difficult to extract? (pressure sign) Or how much runout (how round or straiht) is in the chamber? Just a few things to consider in making the decision to FL size or not.

quote:

Originally posted by WesN:
When someone says fireformed cases, do they just mean cases that they have fired from their particular gun?

To add to rejpelly's reply, I usually hear the
term fireformed, to mean a light load fired in a
standard case to form it to an "improved" or wildcat chamber.
John L.

quote:

resized cases - don't want chambering problems when HOGZILLA shows up!

Hogzilla showed up in this mornings Brisbane
Australia newspaper, photo of himself and the
shooter.
John L.

HI AOWM;"A few things to keep in mind about FL sizing it reduces case capacity and works the brass reducing case life"I dont agree with you,if you have a FL die that gives "smooth PFLR",the brass(body) is not worked hard,both dies will probably" work "the same amount of neck sizing;reducing case life,I dont think so,just a myth ...

quote:

Originally posted by ruger22com:
Is there any reason, after the first fireforming of the shell, to use the full size die, or is the neck sizing die the only thing to use (its nice being able to skip the lube process with a collet die).

Another good question that can help a lot of Beginners.

And you are getting some fine answers that are obviously based on experience. Experience varies though depending on what a person's main goal is when reloading.

If you really don't like lubing a case and then removing the lube, it woul dbe best to stick with the Lee Collet Dies or a regular Neck Sizing Die. But as the other folks mentioned, after a few firings the distance from the Casehead to the Caseshoulder will increase to the point that chambering becomes very difficult in a Bolt Action and impossible in some other actions.

At that point the Case will need to go through a Full Length Die to "very slightly" reduce that dimension. Here is where you have the opportunity to Set-Up your Full Length Resizer Die so it does a Partial-Full Length Resizing(P-FLR), as some have mentioned above.

The benefits of P-FLR far outweigh the small amount of effort required to get the Die set-up properly. You end up where the Bolt closes on the Case with just a slight bit of resistance, which translates to "Zero Headspace". This results in greatly extended Case life, but the biggest benefit to me is it forces the CenterLine of the Case into a near perfect alignment with the Chamber CenterLine - for better accuracy.

The nice thing about this is you can prove the enhanced accuracy part to yourself by simply loading some both ways and then have a buddy hand them to you so you do not know which ones you are shooting. Put 15-18 in a single target of each type and you should see the "small" difference.

But, P-FLR does require that you Lube the cases. So if that is more important to you than the very best possible accuracy, then you are back to the Lee Collet Die or a Neck Sizer - until you need the Full Length Die again.

quote:

I would also think the full sizing die kinda defeats the purpose of fireforming...is this correct?

This is true "if" the Full Length Die is used to reduce the Case back to SAAMI Minimum dimensions. That once again creates "Headspace". Anyone hunting Dangerous Game should ALWAYS Full Length Resize.

But when you Fireform cases, there are two separate things you are trying to accomplish. A person who preferes Neck Sizing Dies likes to blow the case out and have it as close as possible to the internal dimensions of the Chamber. But, the case still lays on the bottom of the chamber in a Controlled Feed Action or along the right chamber wall in a Push Feed Action. The Case CenterLine is not as close to the Chamber CenterLine as it can be.

For a person who P-FLRs, the initial Fireforming causes the Case to also fill the chamber. And at the same time reduces Case Stretch at the Pressure Ring during that Initial Firing. Now when the Case is resized, the Fireforming allows P-FLR to work on the first Reload. So the Fireforming is not "defeated".

I like the P-FL resizing theory and will be trying it out shortly in 308 and 6.5x55 target rifles.

However my main interest is in military rifles and especially .303" Enfields and Ross's.

The .303" head spaces on the rim and the rifles have generous chambers so minimal resizing is desirable.

By P-FL resizing will the round be headspaced on the rim and the shoulder?

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

But, P-FLR does require that you Lube the cases. So if that is more important to you than the very best possible accuracy, then you are back to the Lee Collet Die or a Neck Sizer - until you need the Full Length Die again.

At this point you could use a Redding Body Die in combination with the Lee Collet Die and not have to lube the neck or jerk the case neck with the expander.

quote:

For a person who P-FLRs, the initial Fireforming causes the Case to also fill the chamber. And at the same time reduces Case Stretch at the Pressure Ring during that Initial Firing. Now when the Case is resized, the Fireforming allows P-FLR to work on the first Reload. So the Fireforming is not "defeated".

I'm not sure I understand or agree with this. If the case is fireformed and fits the chamber - how can it lay on one side of the chamber? I know that the brass shrinks back after fireforming a little, but PFLR or any sizing of the case body reduces the outside dimensions more than shrinkage, it would seem. How does PFLR reduce case stretch at the pressure ring during firing?

Unless there is some function that the bolt face plays in pushing the case to one side or the other

quote:

But, the case still lays on the bottom of the chamber in a Controlled Feed Action or along the right chamber wall in a Push Feed Action. The Case CenterLine is not as close to the Chamber CenterLine as it can be.

I just can't visualize the physical mechanics of what you are talking about.


Without guns we are subjects, with guns we are citizens

Seems this stirred up a nest of opinions....chuckle.
Let me say I do not mind at all lubing a case, I was just thinking it is a step that would be nice to eliminate (by lee collet neck sizing only), and cleaning is no problem because I tumble my brass anyway after sizing/de-priming and that gets the lube off.
So to put/combine everyones ideas in perspective, it would be o.k. to say, full length size about every third loading (when I also trim and chamfer too) and then neck size the other two times?

Thanks!
Bob

Dromia, In my opinion when only neck sizing a cartridge designed to headspace on the rim you in fact change that factor. Except for a straight-walled case, it will now headspace on the shoulder of the case, or somewhere else along the case wall. This is a positive result of course as the headspace is in fact reduced. This is also true of all of the belted cases where the headspace is designed to be off the belt. One neck-sized it will headspace off the shoulder.

quote:

Originally posted by dromia:
By P-FL resizing will the round be headspaced on the rim and the shoulder?

Hey dromia, I've never owned a 303, but just looked at it in a Speer Manual. I'm saying that because I much prefer answering a question concerning a cartridge I've had "hands-on" experience with.

That said, the 303 looks like it should work just fine with P-FLRing the cases. Once you do get it Set-Up for P-FLRing then the case will Headspace off the shoulder and not the rim. There will be a small gap between the front of the rim and it's mating surface in the chamber.

That is because of the following:

After P-FLRing, the Case-head will be "snug" against the Bolt-face at the same time the Case-shoulder is snug against the Chamber-shoulder. Just that simple, nothing tricky.

The only thing that could goof this up is how well the Chamber in your rifle and the Full Length Resizing Die match to work with each other. The Military rifles I've used over the years always had Chambers cut larger than a typical civilian chamber. Obviously to allow Cartridges to chamber and eject when used in extremely dirty environments and when you only expect to use that case one time.

If the Chamber is cut so the Case expands way beyond normal in the Pressure Ring area, then P-FLRing(or FLRing) would tend to "overwork" that thin portion of the Case as it reforms the Pressure Ring. In this situation, Neck Sizing might just be a benefit.

quote:

Originally posted by woods:

quote:

For a person who P-FLRs, the initial Fireforming causes the Case to also fill the chamber. And at the same time reduces Case Stretch at the Pressure Ring during that Initial Firing. Now when the Case is resized, the Fireforming allows P-FLR to work on the first Reload. So the Fireforming is not "defeated".

I'm not sure I understand or agree with this. If the case is fireformed and fits the chamber - how can it lay on one side of the chamber? I know that the brass shrinks back after fireforming a little, but PFLR or any sizing of the case body reduces the outside dimensions more than shrinkage, it would seem. How does PFLR reduce case stretch at the pressure ring during firing?

Unless there is some function that the bolt face plays in pushing the case to one side or the other

quote:

But, the case still lays on the bottom of the chamber in a Controlled Feed Action or along the right chamber wall in a Push Feed Action. The Case CenterLine is not as close to the Chamber CenterLine as it can be.

I just can't visualize the physical mechanics of what you are talking about...

Hey Woods, Also good questions and I'll see if I can clear them up for you.

Woods,

quote:

If the case is fireformed and fits the chamber - how can it lay on one side of the chamber?

You were correct when you said,

quote:

I know that the brass shrinks back after fireforming a little,"

.Perhaps the confusion is because the case is either Factory Ammo or Loaded only one time at this point in time prior to the Initial Firing. Therefore the case will do just as you mentioned, "the brass shrinks back after fireforming a little". In most all firearms, this Case will still be slightly loose within the Chamber after firing.

There are exceptions like the 7mmWSM that Jon is having a problem with in his thread. But that is an unusual event.

So, since it is "slightly loose" in the Chamber, the Case will rest against the bottom of the Chamber on a "Controlled Feed" action. In a Push Feed action, the "Ejector" is pushing against the Case-head (typically the Left side as viewed from Aft on a right handed rifle), and that Ejector Pressure will hold the Case against the side of the Chamber.

Woods:

quote:

I just can't visualize the physical mechanics of what you are talking about.

This is always a problem trying to word it so a person can visualize the relationship of the Case when it is in the Chamber. Fortunately, I may have FINALLY thought of a way to describe it so you can do a hands-on test to see the relationship.

Go talk to the BOSS and ask her to let you "borrow" her "Nested Set" of Funnels. Wash your hands in front of her and sit down at the table so she knows you aren't planning to run gasoline through them or something worse. You only need " 2 " of the Funnels.

Now, visualize the larger funnel as the Chamber and the smaller Funnel as the Case.

Put the small Funnel into the large one and while holding the large Funnel by the Spout, allow the small one to rest inside the Large one as if it was a chambered case. Notice the small one will settle to the low side at a slightly skewed angle.

Now do the same thing except push along the Left top portion of the small funnel (as if your finger was an Ejector pushing on the Case-head and you will notice the small Funnel moves against the side of the large funnel and at a slightly skewed angle.

Now, to simulate P-FLRing, place the end of a soda can, glass, whatever inside the mouth of the small funnel and press the small funnel into the large funnel. Maintain this "snug" force and notice how the small funnel immediately centers itself within the large funnel.

Due to the mismatch of the two funnels, you have to hold the CenterLine of the glass straight with the CenterLine of the large funnel, but you should be able to visualize what happens within the Chamber.
---

Wish I'd thought of that example a long time ago.

Interesting analogy

But, in PFLR you push the shoulder back just a little, say .001", in order to relieve crush fit and the case body is made smaller by sizing. If you only neck size the headspace will be smaller than if you PFLR. I just measured some 270 shells, some that were PFLR'd and some that were fired and not sized. With a Stoney Point OAL Gauge, the measurement for the PFLR'd case was 4.045" and with the fired case it was 4.046". Less headspace with the fired case.

Then I made a mark 1" up the case from the head and measured. The PFLR'd case .4585", the fired case .4605". The fired case had a larger diameter.

So, if the fired case is only neck sized, it would be much tighter in the chamber than the sized case. The smaller PFLR'd sized case would be much more likely to be pushed by the bolt to one side or the other since it has more headspace and more room to move from side to side.

The only way that sizing would decrease movement of the case in the chamber is if after moving the shoulder forward during sizing the case body, the shoulder was not pushed back past the point where a fire formed shoulder should be. In other words, create more of a crush fit.

quote:

Put the small Funnel into the large one and while holding the large Funnel by the Spout, allow the small one to rest inside the Large one as if it was a chambered case. Notice the small one will settle to the low side at a slightly skewed angle.

Now do the same thing except push along the Left top portion of the small funnel (as if your finger was an Ejector pushing on the Case-head and you will notice the small Funnel moves against the side of the large funnel and at a slightly skewed angle.

Now, to simulate P-FLRing, place the end of a soda can, glass, whatever inside the mouth of the small funnel and press the small funnel into the large funnel. Maintain this "snug" force and notice how the small funnel immediately centers itself within the large funnel.

Due to the mismatch of the two funnels, you have to hold the CenterLine of the glass straight with the CenterLine of the large funnel, but you should be able to visualize what happens within the Chamber.

Your analogy is illustrative, but I would use it to explain why a PFLR'd case would not center as well. In other words, switch them around.


Without guns we are subjects, with guns we are citizens

quote:

But, in PFLR you push the shoulder back just a little, say .001", in order to relieve crush fit and the case body is made smaller by sizing.

Hey Woods, There is the problem.

Yes indeed, you do, "push the shoulder back just a little, say .001", but that is because the shoulder was moved forward as the FL Die (set to P-FLR) began reforming the Casebody. If you don't do that, you won't be able to close the bolt as the Die approaches the proper amount of P-FLRing.

But, nowhere have " I " ever posted that you do this in order to, "in order to relieve crush fit", in any definition that would indicate a properly P-FLRed case is "loose" in the chamber. A case that has been properly P-FLRed is always chambered with a slight crush fit - meaning Zero Headspace and absolutely no looseness at all.

quote:

If you only neck size the headspace will be smaller than if you PFLR.[quote]Then the P-FLR is not being done correctly.

[quote]I just measured some 270 shells, some that were PFLR'd and some that were fired and not sized. With a Stoney Point OAL Gauge, the measurement for the PFLR'd case was 4.045" and with the fired case it was 4.046". Less headspace with the fired case.

In this situation, your Full Length Die is screwed "into" the press just a tiny bit too far. The P-FLRed case should always be a "slight crush fit" when chambered.

quote:

The only way that sizing would decrease movement of the case in the chamber is if after moving the shoulder forward during sizing the case body, the shoulder was not pushed back past the point where a fire formed shoulder should be. In other words, create more of a crush fit.

Absolutely agree. As the Die begins to P-FLR the Case, the overall Case Length becomes longer. It becomes long enough that it will not allow the Bolt to close on the empty cartridge. You continue screwing the FL Die into the press until the shoulder moves back slightly, and you can chamber the empty with just a bit of resistance. If you continue screwing the FL Di into the press and it ends up creating a "loose fit", then you have gone too far for a proper P-FLR.

P-FLR will not work in all actionsbecause they do not have the mechanical leverage to close the Bolt on a Case that is snug in the chamber. In those actions, what you described above would be desireable.

And of course in rifles carried in Dangerous Game country, the cases should be Full Length Resized so there is a slight bit of Headspace to allow slick fast cartridge chambering and extraction.

Hypothetically, if there were a gauge that measured the amount of force necessary to close the bolt on a case and the amount measured for at PFLR case and a neck sized case were exactly the same, doesn't it follow that the headspace is exactly the same?

The PFLR case would also have a smaller diameter case body cause it has been sized, right?

So

Neck sized case - slight crush fit
PFLR case - slight crush fit and smaller case body

Neither is more likely to lay on it's side in a chamber than the other. PFLR is real tricky and a very small adjustment in the die makes the difference between too much and too little headspace. Just a little too much headspace and the sized case becomes much more likely to lay on it's side in the chamber. An expanded case is there and has to be right.

In other words I don't think the case body contracts enough after firing to make the case lay on its side in the chamber or be pushed to one side by the bolt - otherwise there would be no crush fit.


Who made the men in black robes God? Whoever is was made a mistake!

Hotcore and Woods,interesting replies."In this situation, your Full Length Die is srewed"into the press"just a tiny bit too far.The P-FlRed case should always be a "slight crush"whem chambered.That means ,are you only resize the body of the case without touching the shoulder?.I PFLR,(1/12 turn or so) before the die touches the shell holder;I cannot get a headspace gauge to measure if or not I touch the shoulder,without a gauge I dont think is possible to know it.