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 I have been loading lately for a 7x57. In checking the archives I get some incredible info. Some people are getting 280 speed out of this and 7mag loads out of the 280. I did a little rechecking in other archives and it looks as if this trend is true in most calibers/cartridges. The caveat that these people use is 'I don't see any pressure signs in my gun.' I wonder how safe these loads actualy are. I was reading where it seems to be universal that lawyers are to blame. It seems to me that with the universal, and cheap, avaliability of pressure devices that this might be the reason that manufactures are keeping the pressures in line. I usually stop when my chrony/manuals tell me to. How many of you guys that load hot have actualy measured your pressure. capt david  "It's not how hard you hit 'em, it's where you hit 'em." The 30-06 will, with the right bullet, successfully take any game animal in North America up to 300yds. Get closer! | ||
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captdavid, There have been many enthusiastic debates -- er, I mean, discussions -- on the subject of pressure measurement on this forum. It's fair to say that no consensus has been reached. I have used an RSI strain gage system mounted on a 7-30 carbine, a 357 rifle, and two different 30-06 barrels, and have found that when loaded to SAAMI pressures, velocities are sometimes equal to "book" velocities and are sometimes lower than "book" velocities, but in no case have I found a magic load that gives more velocity without more pressure. In no case have I been able to exceed book velocities at SAAMI pressures. In the bolt action '06, I did not run into traditional pressure signs until 75,000 psi, and only then with brass that had been reloaded 25 or more times. IMHO, a stout action like the M700 with a smooth and not overly large chamber may not show obvious pressure signs until it is too late. The TC 7-30, on the other hand, will let you get away with "hot" loads for one or two reloadings, but those hot loads will seperate cases after several reloadings due to the stretchy TC action -- and the TC doesn't handle case failures very gracefully -- so I've learned not to push the TC loads. If I push the Marlin 1894 357 past SAAMI specs, it will occasionally pierce a primer, due, I think, to the sloppy fit of the firing pin and not particularly tight headspace. A better quality firearm would no doubt allow pressures to be pushed higher without any visible problems. Often I do use more powder than book loads, though, to compensate for the increased effective chamber volume resulting from sloppy chambers and longer COLs. The net result is that it takes more powder to reach standard pressures and standard velocities. | |||
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Kind of off topic, but revelent. On my two bolt guns, a .223 and .308, I get flattened primers no matter what I shoot. Factory, reloads, reduced charge practice rounds, just about everything I feed them flatten the primers a bit. Just wondering if there is a better way to tell pressure signs. | |||
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You have posed a good question. My standard answer to this query is to cop out and quote one of my favorite experts, Bob Hagel. He said something like "it is difficult to convince most reloaders that all rifles are individuals, AND WHAT MAY PROVE TO BE A MAXIMUM LOAD IN ONE RIFLE MAY BE QUITE MILD IN ANOTHER, AND VICE-VERSA! (GAME LOADS AND PRACTICAL BALLISTICS FOR THE AMERICAN HUNTER, 1978) I have been shooting two loads in my 7X57mm Mauser rifles (five different ones over the years, but ALL M98 Mausers or Ruger 77's/No.1's, NONE OF THE EARLIER 7x57MM'S!!) that fall into the category you mention. One load drives a 140-grain bullet at between 2950 and 3000 FPS, depending on which rifle I shoot it in, and uses either WW760 or H414 powder. The other drives a 175-grain Nosler Partition at slightly above 2700 FPS, and today I am using Re 22 for this load instead of the Norma N205 with which the load was originally worked up. I have been shooting the 140-grain load since 1972, and the 175-grain load since 1974 in the various 7X57mm rifles I have owned during that period, and have never even experienced a stiff bolt, or any other "pressure signs", like expanding primer pockets, etc. Cases last at least 10 reloadings with both of these loads. As a matter of fact, I am convinced that it is NOT POSSIBLE to get enough RE 22 into a 7X57mm case to be in dangerous pressure ranges with any .284" bullet up to 175 grains, AS LONG AS THE ROUND IS BEING FIRED IN A STRONG, MODERN RIFLE AND NOT A M93 OR M95 MAUSER or Remington rolling block!! - perhaps with the 195-grain Barnes Original, maybe. But not with a 175-grainer or below. However, NOTE THAT ALL OF MY RIFLES HAVE RELATIVELY LONG THROATS, AND THAT IS A SIGNIFICANT FACTOR IN 7X57MM CALIBER RIFLES!! "Bitte, trinks du nicht das Wasser. Dahin haben die Kuhen gesheissen." | |||
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One thing to take into consideration is that the SAAMI pressure standard for the 7x57 especially, but the 280 as well, is lower than the 7mag. If you run the 7x57 and the 280 up to 7mag pressures (and I see no reason not to, as long as they are fired in a modern bolt action designed for 65 KPSI) you will step up in performance. Or, you can just buy a 7mag, and not worry about it... JMO, Dutch. Life's too short to hunt with an ugly dog. | |||
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capt, david What type of rifle is your 7mm Mauser ? as stated by another poster, both factory ammo and most posted handloads are kept to low preasures. The reason is that the 1st rifles for the 7X57 were 1891 or mabye 93 mausers. Not a safe action for modern preasure levels. The 280 is another cartridge kept low, for a slightly different reason. Its origional home was the remington 740 automatic. Again not a strong action. Another factor is throating. If you can seat the bullets way out of the case as I can in my CZ 7X57 you have more space for powder. I use H-414 and RL-19 ans I get 2900 with 150s and 2650 with 160s and that from a 20.5 inch barrel. No preasure signs, and brass holds up well. ...tj3006 freedom1st | |||
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Your comments on the 93 Mausers is right on, but I don't think the 91 was ever factory chambered to the 7x57, which in any case is not relevant to the topic. My question arises from the fact that lately, a goodly batch of Spanish mausers (1893s from the Oviedo Arsenal in Spain) have come into this country chambered to ther 7.62 NATO and marked .308 Winchester. Supposedly, samples of these rifles were tested by the H.P. White laboratory and proclaimed safe for use with factory .308 ammo.  All these years, it's been said that they are not safe because they were proofed ar 45,000 PSI, which was actually CUP, as they didn't call it CUP back then, and now they're safe for a 52,000 CUP load? Something's wrong with that picture. Either the guns are safe or they're not.I suppose I've gotten a hair OT here, but I shoot quite a bit of 7x57 ammo so I am familiar with the cartridge. The comment Bob Hagel makes is right on. I have three rifles right now in 7x57 and too shoot just fine with my hat handloads. The other, a custom 98 Mauser gets hiccups if I go very much past handbook max loads. The weird part is, the rifle was originally a .270 that had a bad barrel. I've mentioned this before, but certain rounds including the 7x57, .280 Rem. 30-06, .35 Whelen and .257 Roberts are downloaded because they're either originally chambered in weak guns, or, like the .280 Rem. were designed for semi-auto rifles whose actions cannot take the slam bang stress of a properly loaded cartrdige. If you own, say a new Winchester Model70 in 30-06, then there is no reason you cannot safely load the 30-06 ammo to the same pressures found in a 7mm or .300 Magnum. They don't use a different steel to make a magnum rather than the 30-06. The buzz word here is "safely". No manual will ever give you the data that you need, but I'd be willing to bet that the guys who work up the loads for Speer, Sierra, Hornady et al have that data for their own personal use. To me, that ain't cheatin' fair.  So, I guess we poor reloaders will just have to go on plodding along in the dark hoping we won't screw up and blow up a nice rifle.Paul B. | |||
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Good comments, Paul! It is my understanding that the SPANISH developed a reduced-load 7.62X51 NATO round to shoot in their converted old M93 and M95 Mausers. I do not believe the Spanish intended to use full charge ammo in these. I was not aware that H.P. White had pronounced these rifles OK for commercial .308 ammo or the equivalent. I do know quite a few Swedes have been rebarreled for rounds like the .220 Swift, .22/250, etc. Some may be OK, but how do you find out which ones AREN'T?? "Bitte, trinks du nicht das Wasser. Dahin haben die Kuhen gesheissen." | |||
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I only load the 7 x 57, but it is long throated in all three rifle I own in that caliber.... I use the Hornady Number 3 manual as an original reference.... the following one, number 4 had lighter load data in it... Since mine are all modern rifles ( 2 Rugers and One winchester Model 70) I don't worry about the lack of quality etc.... IMR 3031 and 40 grains have proven to be "the" accuracy magic pill in both of my Rugers, with any bullet weights from 139 grains to 175 grains... Velocity does not vary much it seems and point of impact is not much difference when changing bullet weights.... Bullets are seated out to magazine length and surprisingly, the 175 grain load with 40 grains of 3031 gives me 2650 fps in both Rugers instead of 2400 or so like their manual says.... But the 280 and the 7 x 57 have always been underloaded cartridges....If they haven't been, In wonder if the popularity of the 7 Mag would have been substantially less  But if you need a 7 Mag then get one.... But someone's 7 Mag will give them about 20 to 30 yds of point blank range over my 7 x 57 loads.... My 7 x 57s can suffer that humilation without worrying about it! They will get the job done anyway! cheers seafire  | |||
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El Deguello. You are quite correct about the Spain using a reduced load in 7.62 NATO. However, 7.62 NATO is an incorrect name for the round, which is in fact, the 7.62 CETME. I'm not sure for the reasining of the downloading,as I don't think Spain's soldiers had particularly tender shoulders. Maybe it was because they wanted the old 93s and 95s to be back up guns in case of attack, but I'm more inclined to think the problem lay in the CETME assault rifle itself. It may have been pressure related problems, or maybe they were looking at controllability in full auto fire. I don't know. I do know that the reduced .308 load was intended for their assault rifle, rather than the old 93 Mausers. Changes were made at some later time to be able to use full power 7.62 NATO ammo. Paul B. | |||
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My loads both use H4350 and are 51gns using a 145gn Speer bt @ 2800fps and 49.5gns using a 150 Sierra GK at 2700. I'm planning on using those loads in 140 and 150 Partitions one of these days. That's where my chrony makes me think that I should stop.Sometimes it blows the action open in my rolling block, but I always wear goggles Just kidding, my gun is a '52 FN commercial Mauser with a long throat. capt david "It's not how hard you hit 'em, it's where you hit 'em." The 30-06 will, with the right bullet, successfully take any game animal in North America up to 300yds. Get closer! | |||
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Thanks for the info! "Bitte, trinks du nicht das Wasser. Dahin haben die Kuhen gesheissen." | |||
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I have a "standard" 7X57mm load that I use in all my 7X57mm rifles, consisting of the Nosler 150-grain BT and 50 grains of IMR 4350. The bullet is seated to give an overall loaded length to 80mm. I chronografed this load in my 22" Mo. 1A at 2700 FPS. It is a good deer load, and not at all "hot" - quite mild, actually, in ALL my 7X57mm's.... "Bitte, trinks du nicht das Wasser. Dahin haben die Kuhen gesheissen." | |||
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