My little town has two gunshops and both are pricks. I want to buy a gun, or in fact I've committed myself to buying a gun. This guy wants an FFL on BOTH ends for long guns. I told him that wasn't necessary. He said I was wrong, and "I've already been screwed on that deal once, I am not going that road again." Bobby Tomeck Emailed a link to me, but I inadvertently deleated it.

I know it will probably be counter productive, but can I make the guy do it??? Meanig does he legally have to do it, or not. It really makes things a pain to drive 60 miles one way to get an FFL to ship to and he charges $25. The local guy only charges $20.

[ 09-23-2003, 21:41: Message edited by: Jesse Jaymes ]

You have a couple of problems, and only one of which seems to be an FFL.

The receiver of a firearm MUST have a current valid FFL. However, most dealers who ship firearms will have an FFL and require the receiver to have an FFL. This is probably where you are becoming confused.

As for the $20 or $25 fee involved in transferring the ownership of a firearm, that is entirely reasonable considering the time and paperwork required (not to mention the after-the-fact liabilities).

As for "making" a dealer accept a firearm for you, no you cannot not "make" him do it. Selling firearms is a private business, and you have no right to tell a man how to run his business. He is not obligated to sell you anything, he is not obligated to receive anything for you.

If they weren't such "pricks" as you put it, or possibly if you were a real customer, they would more than likely do the transfer for free (I do them all the time for free for my regular customers). But, my regular customers either return the favor by purchasing something from me, or giving me return "professional courtesies" depending on how they earn their living. "Steve, thanks for transferring that gun for me, the next time you need your tires rotated or balanced, or an oil change, give me a call, it'll be on the house." Or, "Steve, thanks for the transfer. I have a new computer monitor that I don't need. do you want it?"

This is called a working relationship. How much have you spent with the two local dealers in your area in the past 2 months? Or do you figure that a firearms dealer is just there for your beck and call and convenience?

[ 09-23-2003, 23:52: Message edited by: ricciardelli ]

Here's a good place to look:

ATF P 5300.4 - Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide 2000 (1/00)
http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/2000_ref.htm

-Bob F.

You don't need an FFL on the sender's end, but you must have one on the receiver's end.
The dealer is already FFL licensed, so he probably doesn't mean BOTH ends, but just rather YOUR end.
Now, go through the yellow pages and find a pawn shop nearby.
They almost ALWAYS have FFL's.
And they aren't in cometition, so there's no need to "return the favor."
I'm all for supporting the local gunshop, but if you don't like these guys, then don't go there.

Here's a suggestion: Go to some of the popular gun auction boards. At least a couple of them list FFL's by geographic area. Through that, I found a real nice guy that works out of his house, and he only charges me $10 on used stuff, and $20 on new. May you be so fortunate.

Here's the deal and I am still stuck. I posted a long rebuttle to Steve, but it got lost due to 28.8 dial up.

I confronted the lesser of the two evils. I asked him if I could get aused rifle transfered into his shop with a coppy of his FFL. He said sure. I said good, because last time you denied me because the guy wasn't an (additional) FFL holder. He said "That's right, it needs to come from a FFL to my FFL". I told him he was wrong. He got pissed.

I had a printed cony of the Q&A section of the AFT rules in the B section near number 5 or so that asked " Can an out of state transferee receive a firearm......................" Can't remember the rest.

He still doesn't believe me.

The gun is from a regular hunting guy in Louisiana. I am trying to get a signed copy of an FFL in order to have it shipped to the owner of the FFL, i.e. this guy I am arguing with.

He said it's not a matter of not wanting to do it, he legally can't.

Today is my last day off. I have to work 7 more days straight. There is nothing between my town and the next where the other FFL is except 61 miles of desert and jackrabbits. That's 122 miles to get the FFL and 122 miles to pick up the gun. That's 244 miles for a crappy Remington 700 I am going to run thru a bandsaw to get the action out of.

Any other links regarding the legallity of the shipping/transfer? He'll do it, but I need to show him beyond a shadow of doubt, that it is legal. The AFT doesn't have a Q&A help line, or NCIC doesn't stop you if you aren't doing something quite correctly.

Longguns, rifles or shotguns, can be transfered via the mail inside your own state, but if they are comeing from out of state, then they have to go from FFL to FFL. You should be able to find it at the ATFtreas.gov somewhere, I think it's in the FAQ section. Handguns have to go from FFL to FFL regardless.

Maybe you are thinking of the gunsmith part, in that you can ship your gun to a gunsmith or the factory and they can send it back to you without an FFL.

While I'm not at all sure how this is related to "Reloading", the BATF FAQ is at http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/index.htm

See in particular Section B numbers 1, 3, 8, 9, and 17.

Briefly, any person, licensed or no, can sell and ship a gun only to a licensee (dealer) in another state. There is no ATF requirement for an FFL on the seller's (shipper's) end, only on the buyer's (receiver's) end, and then only if seller and buyer are in different states.

There are some other applicable regulations that affect shipping the firearms, especially handguns, which require an FFL to ship via USPS, and other hurdles to ship via private carrier, but those are not ATF regulations, they are Post Office regulations and the private carriers' rules.

But it is within the dealer's discretion to require anything he damn well pleases beyond the ATF requirements to participate in the transaction.

www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm states in part:

(B8) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U. S. Postal Service? [Back]

A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own state or to a licensee in any state. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. A nonlicensee may not transfer any firearm to a nonlicensed resident of another state. The Postal Service recommends that longguns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms.

(B9) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by carrier? [Back]

A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by carrier to a resident of his or her own state or to a licensee in any state. A common or contract carrier must be
used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract
carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm. [18 U. S. C. 922( a)( 2)( A) and 922( e), 27 CFR 178.31]

This should adequately answer the question. However, by "arguing" with the guy, you are not helping your cause. He's not "required" to do anything for you. He can simply say No, regardless of the "rules". Try to politely explain your side, otherwise you're just gonna end up driving further to get someone else to do it. Good luck.

Ask him if he has a copy of Davidson's, Jerry's, or wherever he buys his new gun's from's FFL? Ask him if he accepts trade-ins from customers that don't have FFL's or does he only buy and sell with other dealers? He does not need a copy of anyone's FFL to recieve a firearm. Just last Friday I mailed a Savage 99 off to Shreveport, La. I got a copy of the dealers FFL so I would know who I was sending it to, but he did not ask for my FFL (I don't have one yet), because he did not need it. As I said ask him the first question I posted. Sean

I find it hard to believe you are within driving distance of TWO gunshops and no pawn shops.

There's no reg. that says you CAN do it because you CAN do anything that's not forbidden. Some issues in this area are covered in the Reference Guide, Q&A section.

Call ATF in Washington (NOT a local field office) and ask them. If you get the correct answer (i.e. that no FFL is required to ship to an FFL for a sale), get the name and direct line of the person you talked to and give it to the dealer who's willing to do it if it's legal. Ask the ATF person if they can give it to you in writing (you may have to ask your question in writing to get that).

John

Yes there is a Pawn Shop in town. I asked him lst time. He asked me "How much is the gun", I told him it was $375. He said he would do me a favor and just call it "$35". I informed him that it was just a used rifle found over the internet and I would gladly pay him $20 as it was just a transfer. He said, "Well you can check around town, but you'll find %10 is about standard."

The rest of you aren't hearing me correctly. I just did it a month ago, I know it's legal. You don't have to ship from an FFL to an FFL. It only need to be recieved by an FFL from out of state to purchase the firearm. The posted selection of the Q&A are in the same general area, but I'm not concearned with mailing requirements.

Here's and idea...

Spend the bucks and get your own FFL...then you won't have these problems.

Let's see if I can either clear things up or simply cloud the issue.

I have purchased several rifles over the net. Mailing or shipping is a different issue all together then selling. You can sell to someone in your own state "face to face" in most places except California which requires that the transaction is processed by an FFL, but not to anyone out of your state, unless it goes through an FFL at both ends. It all has to do with a paper trail of ownership. The FFL on the sellers end will do the paperwork getting the proper ID & signatures for his records and books from the seller and ship to the receivers FFL. The receivers FFL will then get the buyers ID and signatures as well as get a background check. As long as everything checks out OK the gun is yours.

Now some may think that I'm all wet but this has been what I've been through every time and I've used several different FFL's. Now for what I think is funny; The regulations allow you to ship a gun to yourself, as in out-of-state hunting trips where you might be flying or may not have room to pack it. The only requirement is that no one else is allowed to open the package but you.

Pay the $20 and consider yourself lucky, my last transfer cost me $80 and some FFL's are getting a percentage of the value of the gun to do the transfer. Seems they what their cut even if they can't carry the gun you're buying.

The last time I asked the ATF for a legal responce, it took 3 times and 6 months to get something in writing and they skirted the issue without answering my specific question.