I finally got around to using the Stoney Point OAL gauge on it -- seating depths are a full 0.150" or so longer than in my pre-war Model 70 in the same caliber. Many bullets that work beautifully in the Winchester when seated 0.030" from the rifling, can't be seated adequately in the Mark X if the same free travel is maintained.

It appears that the Mark X will have to specialize as a "heavy bullet" rifle. Hornady 180-gr. Spire Points and 180-gr. Nosler Partitions, when seated to 0.030" from the rifling, will just barely fit in the magazine.

I would be most grateful for any suggestions for bullets to try if these two favorites don't shoot well.

The biggest impact of this discovery will be on my development of mid-range deer loads. There's little need for a 180-grain bullet at full velocity for Virginia whitetails. In the Model 70 I have planned on using a very accurate load with the 150-gr. Spire Point at about 2500 fps (equivalent to a .300 Savage). It looks as if the Mark X may call for drastic measures -- like a .30-30 equivalent load with the 170-gr. Hornady flat point.

I suppose this also means that the Mark X will take more powder to achieve maximum velocities. So much for my hopes of finding a load that would work in both rifles.

Again, any thoughts or suggestions would be welcome.

I have never had light spire points shoot well with long jumps though. These were 100 grain bullets. I have gotten fairly consistant 1.5 MOA groups with Sierra 100 grain spitzers.

[This message has been edited by Scott H (edited 07-03-2001).]

The Speer RN does not have a Cannelure, so it won't look "wrong" if you seat it out further. It just must fit in the magazine.

Going in the opposite direction, try some 220 Sierra RN with 54 gr Rel 22. You will be surprised at how well it kills Whitetail.
Don't use the 220 Hornady or Nosler bullets, as they are much tougher than the Sierra, and may not expand on a Deer.

Also try some Nosler Ballistic Tips, as they are a very long bullet, and may shoot great regardless of the jump.

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May I be half the man my dog thinks I am.

I think I'll start out with the 180-gr. Hornady seated to 0.030" -- yes, it does look funny with the cannelure way out there but no skin off my nose.

If that works I'll try the Partition (which frankly, I think looks a little funny because of its longer ogive). Both of these bullets seat to about the point where the neck meets the shoulder, so I'm not terribly worried about inadequate pull.

For a mid-range load I will probably first try the Hornady flat-nose. Most likely I'll start with IMR 3031, which has worked great for such purposes in the past. I will use the starting charge for a 165 or 168-gr. and work up to something that gives me decent accuracy in the 2000-2500 fps range that this bullet was designed for. Ranges in Va. are typically short--as a friend of mine puts it, the velocity requirement here is that the bullet exit the barrel.

Any comments on the powder charge issue, i.e., should I anticipate needing more of it to reach normal velocities?

John

Usually I would select a couple of powders, start about 4 gr. down from the max load shown in two books, set the seating die to put the bullets 0.030" off the lands, and work up the powder charges.

In this case, I am thinking of just starting with the Hornady 180-gr. Spire Point (a bullet that seems to have a good reputation overall) and IMR 4350 which everyone seems to recommend -- then work up two sets of cartridges. One would have the bullet 0.030" from the lands (giving a OAL of 3.370", which will still function in my magazine) and another set loaded to the SAAMI max OAL of 3.340" (which would take me 0.060" from the lands).

In other words, should I consider OAL a more important variable than powder selection, given a standard powder for the cartridge?

John

Using Hornady 180-gr. Spire Points as a good general bullet and cheaper than Noslers, I seated them 0.030" from the lands, giving an OAL of about 3.360". I went from 52.0 to 56.0 gr. of IMR 4350. (Remington brass, CCI primers.)

Accuracy was around 2" with most of the loads -- some of the lighter loads were a bit smaller but had a lot of horizontal stringing. (Some of it was probably wind, some of it was probably me.)

Maximum velocity with the 56.0 gr. charge averaged 2588 fps from a 24" barrel. No pressure signs were noted; in fact case expansion at the pressure ring was less than for any factory cartridge I've tested in this rifle.

I will go back and try 57.0 gr. with a clean barrel just to see what happens. That is the maximum load I've been able to find anywhere.

I can't go any closer to the lands or the cartridges won't fit in the magazine. I'm thinking of backing off in a couple of fairly large increments to see what happens.

What would you try next to get better accuracy and velocity?

Try letting them jump at least 0.07" to 0.08" as a starting point. I think spire points may not be ideal with long tapered throats. I have a hunch that a spitzer flat base or spitzer boat tail may deliver better precision. My swede seems to dislike spire points.

Quickload indicates 55.0 gr of IMR 4350, over a Speer or Hornady bullet, should get close to 2730 FPS with a 24" barrel. This is with a 3.28" OAL (0.08" jump.) Sierra lists 56.0 gr. IMR 4350 as the max with their Spitzer at 3.34" from a 26" barrel @ 2800 fps. This load would probably be close to 2750 in a 24" barrel. 55.0 grains at 3.28" is almost exactly the same load density of the longer Sierra load. I would cut it a grain and go up from there.

The curious thing is, your load should have delivered 27XX fps and didn't. It may be wanting a crimp as well.

I think the reason for the low velocity is probably that the bullet is seated so far out that there is still quite a bit of air space, thus pressure is lower. Two of the three manuals that list 56.0 as a max load of IMR 4350, are showing it as a compressed load, which it definitely wasn't based on shaking the rounds I loaded.

I believe what I'll do is take the cases I used for the first batch, and try 5 rounds at 57.0 with the same depth (just to complete the series), then try 54.0 and 55.0 with the bullets seated to SAAMI max OAL (which will give a bullet jump of about 0.050") and again 54.0 and 55.0 with a longer bullet jump of 0.070" to test your suggestion.

I doubt that any of these will be a maximum load. Whichever one is showing best accuracy, I'll try to run up to around 2700 fps or max charge, whichever comes first. Whichever works best, I'll also try crimped.

Then, I'll try a similar load with Nosler Partitions.

I was very happy with the pressure characteristics of IMR 4350 in that the progression seemed very steady and I didn't have to pull any bullets! Same goes for very promising trials of RL-22 in my .270 the same day.

John

[This message has been edited by John Frazer (edited 07-16-2001).]

The tip of the Hornady is pretty much a straight cone. The Sierra is "bulged", putting more weight up front, allowing more space in the cartridge, and making it possible to get longer COL without touching the rifling.

All loads used the 180-gr. Hornady Spire Point, CCI 200 primers and IMR 4350. All were loaded in once-fired Remington brass, full-length sized and trimmed to minimum length. All figures based on 5-shot groups at 100 yds. Chrono measurements by a Chrony Beta about 10-12 feet from muzzle. Temperature in the 70s all morning, low humidity.

Format is seating distance from lands (by Stoney Point gauge)/charge/avg. velocity/group

0.030"/57.0 gr./2639 fps/1.11" (best 4 since first was a flier from the clean, cold barrel that went about 2" high)

0.050"/54.0 gr./2438 fps/1.61"
0.050"/55.0 gr./2517 fps/3.3"+ (could have been wind)
0.070"/54.0 gr./2449 fps/2.6"+ (don't think it was windy at this point)
0.070"/55.0 gr./2533 fps/1.64"

I didn't load higher with this group of loads because I didn't want to have a ridiculous number of bullets to pull.

None of these loads (not even the 57.0 grainer which is the maximum I've been able to find in any of the manuals) showed any signs of excess pressure. In fact, case expansion at the pressure ring was less than for any of the factory ammo I've tested in the same rifle.

However, the deeper the bullet was seated in the case, the higher the case expansion measurement I got for any given velocity.

Given these results I think it's safe to say that for this rifle and bullet, I should simply stay with the book-maximum 57.0 gr. load seated about 0.030" from the lands.

Further experimentation will probably be limited to another group with the same load to confirm acceptable accuracy, and maybe a 5-shot group with the same load, but crimped, to see if that helps.

Next time I will also try similar loads with the Nosler Partition, crimped and uncrimped.

Any comments or suggestions would be welcome.

Since the bullet is seated so far out that a book-maximum 57.0 gr. charge of IMR 4350 isn't even lightly compressed, and is generating lower pressures than factory ammo, would it make sense to think of this as being in effect a larger case, thus meriting a slower-burning powder?

Perhaps I'll try H4831 and see what happens. If nothing else it'll use up some of my H4831, which didn't work well in my .270 so it's just taking up space anyway.

John

This rifle does want to shoot.

With the bullet (180 Hornady Spire Point) seated 0.030" from the lands I got the following decent groups:

57.0 gr. IMR 4350/2639 fps/1.1"

58.0 gr. H4831/2450 fps/1.3" (best 4 in 0.6", can't remember whether I called a flyer)

59.0 gr. H4831/59.0 gr. H4831/1.3"

Maximum loads of H4831 produced lower velocities than max loads of IMR 4350. So much for my theory that more powder space in the case due to the long OAL would call for a slower-burning powder.

Crimping (with the Lee die) seems to help a little.

However, I can't help but feel that I could get a little more velocity with my accuracy.

If you were me, what would you try next given these results? Different powder? (I'm thinking RL-19, RL-22, 3100?)

[This message has been edited by John Frazer (edited 07-28-2001).]

If you want to try faster powders try R-15 or R-12 or 4064.

Scott

Or, do you think a faster-burning powder might actually work better in this case? I would think it would have accuracy/consistency problems from having too little powder in the case. Then again, one of the most accurate loads in my .270 uses only 40 grains of IMR 3031.

Alliant lists 48.5 grains R-15 with a Speer 180, (3.25" OAL) At your intended length, 50.15 grains would give the same load density. I would start slightly under Alliant's suggested load and work up till you obtain your desired velocity or encounter pressure signs. R-15 is a neat powder. It throws very uniformly from most powder measures.

[This message has been edited by Scott H (edited 07-29-2001).]

quote:

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Originally posted by Scott H:
John,
With IMR 4350 at 3.36" OAL, 56.4 grains would be about the same load density as 56.0 at 3.34" The 57.0 grain load you mentioned earlier would be 57.4 at your length. You might want to try a bit more IMR4350 before you try the faster powders.

Alliant lists 48.5 grains R-15 with a Speer 180, (3.25" OAL) At your intended length, 50.15 grains would give the same load density. I would start slightly under Alliant's suggested load and work up till you obtain your desired velocity or encounter pressure signs. R-15 is a neat powder. It throws very uniformly from most powder measures.

[This message has been edited by Scott H (edited 07-29-2001).]

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Are those figures from Quickload or a similar program?

I am a fan of Alliant powders based on RL-22 alone so far. In my .270, first I tried H4831 with a 150-gr. bullet but found that accuracy peaked well below the highest velocity. Folks on this board suggested RL-22 and I found best accuracy right at the load I would consider maximum in my rifle (56.5 gr.).

John

Remember also that a long throat is the same principle as improving the case, it gives you more powder space and thus more velocity...My 7x57 will give me 2950 with a 160 gr. Noslers with H414 powder and I've loaded that load in a case 15 times and no splits...thats cooking
DO NOT USE THIS LOAD IN A SHORT THROATED RIFLE....

It would be easy to lenthen the magazine box in your mauser to except longer bullets seated out....

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

quote:

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Originally posted by Atkinson:

Remember also that a long throat is the same principle as improving the case, it gives you more powder space and thus more velocity

[snip]

It would be easy to lenthen the magazine box in your mauser to except longer bullets seated out....

---

I dunno, my bullets are pretty long and seated well out already ...

For my next trip to the range I will cautiously increase the charge of IMR 4350 a little. I will also work up to max load of RL-19 and H4350 for comparison purposes.

With any of these, once I get pressure signs or 2700 fps or exceptional accuracy, I'm calling it a day and moving on to the next candidate!

On Terry's advice I also picked up some 220 Sierras today. Terry--what velocity are you getting with the load you suggested?

Wow Ray, that is really cooking! My 7 mag is in a snit. It took nearly 68 grains of H4831 in my 7 to get there. Is your 7 X 57 a 29" barrel? Please share some more details. Enquiring minds want to know. Hmmm! I have an extra Mexican Mauser action that may get its barrel back... Anyone want to buy a 7 mag?

Along the same lines, my Turk 1903/Swede barreled hybrid is pushing the Sierra or Hornady 140's at 2950 and 3020 respectively with the 29" tube.

Terry Blauwkamp's suggestion for the 220 Sierra and RL-22 was a good one. This rifle takes a tad more powder than he suggested -- 58.0 gr. (a near-maximum load) gets me consistent 1.5" groups at 2442 fps average. (Hey, I'm not trying to make a silk purse here--just want groups that are usable for zeroing and to use on reasonable-size animals.)

I also tried reasoning it out on my own. First there was a failed attempt at "out of the box" thinking where I tried the 180 Hornady Spire Point IMR 4064 (OK accuracy but it hit maximum pressures before reaching a decent velocity).

Then, I tried the same bullet and some W760 (erratic groups at inadequate velocity).

I decided that since the only factory ammo that works well is the Hornady Light Magnum BTSP, I would try a boattail.

I decided the Hornady 190 BTSP would be a pretty solid one and a bit on the heavy side to boot, which this rifle seems to need. I decided to give H4350 a whirl since it is just a bit faster than you would normally expect to work with this bullet -- and because I have almost a full pound of it still, since I haven't yet found anything else it works well in. I seated the bullet at a depth that I calculated to give me 0.30" of contact between the neck and the bearing surface, which also happened to be right around the max. OAL that will feed through the magazine. Probably about a 0.060" jump.

I am very optimistic about the results. A maximum charge of 56.5 gr. of H4350 gave me 2640 fps and consistently decent groups all the way there.

If a few groups to confirm accuracy bear out, I should have an open-country load and a close-up load in the bag, and can get off the damn bench to really shoot!

John